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Post subject: The cost is too high to consider...
 Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 11:35 PM
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This account has been Permanently Banned
Joined: Oct 26, 2002
Posts: 3515
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 13, 2002 - 12:24 AM
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At times I think we would have been better off had we and the Soviets lobbed some nuclear weapons at each other back in '48 or so. It might have been enough to scare the bejeesus out of everyone, and made us all more intent in pursuing diplomatic solutions to problems. We have a horrid weapon we've never really culturally adapted to owning. I'm not sure we will until after something really bad happens.
I recognize we did have a limited nuclear war, although not exchange, with Japan. But coming at the end of what was already a long destructive war, I don't think people outside of Japan were as horrified as they might have been otherwise. I imagine Europeans, Soviets and US were all pretty numb by then.
Diane |
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jbrenner |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 13, 2002 - 12:45 AM
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Joined: Nov 02, 2002
Posts: 105
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Hey, that's the spirit Diane ...
Lob a couple into the mens room of the Kremlin - a little
10 kiloton wake up call for Khrushchev and the gang. By gosh we'll make a "righty"out of you yet.  jb |
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Post subject: Dooms Day
Posted: Nov 13, 2002 - 12:47 AM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 6571
Location: Oregon, USA
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Your just too optimistic Diane. 
Augie |
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Post subject: First of all.
Posted: Nov 13, 2002 - 12:53 AM
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This account has been Permanently Banned
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 3088
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You can almost count on Sadam blowing some oil rigs. He knows Bush wants the oil and hed ratehr blow it up than let us have it..
It was reported today that hes ordered millions of Saren gas treatements, giger counters, chemical suits and showers.
Than they put a delay on answering our request for weapons inspections.
Bush is acting like a big baby saaying well hes not allowing weapons inspectors in or voting on it so he gets his war. |
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rag451 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 13, 2002 - 01:03 AM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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What is the cost if we don't take out Saddam? I'm willing to risk it, if it means saving tens, maybe hundreds, of millions more people.
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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tj03a |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 13, 2002 - 06:06 AM
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Joined: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 1250
Location: New York, Long Island
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The risk of not taking out Saddam is that he will hand off the nuclear material he will generate to terrorists and they will use it to nuke New York city where 8 million people live. Anyone who doesn't see that as a possibility is wearing rose colored glasses. Being a person who lives close to NYC I'm starting to feel that it's either the Iraqi's or me and those 8 million New Yorkers. Take a wild guess where I stand on that.
In fact I'm seeing so much stuff lately that hitting Iraq is bad that thinking of the above possible consequence of that attitude is really making me sick to my stomach that anyone would be foolish to believe that it wouldn't happen. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 13, 2002 - 02:45 PM
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I've always considered the Iraqi behaviour in the Gulf Was as puzzling. Iraqi forces easily took Kuwait without much protest from Saudi Arabia. If Saddam had any Muslim agenda beyond territorial aquisition of Kuwait he could have continued into Saudi Arabia. Instead he held a World War I style trench line defense at the border. Saddam placed mostly conscripts, not regular army in those positions.
Another puzzle is the restraint from large scale use of chemical weapons. It is well known to the US military that Saddam has no qualms about its employment, both on civillian and military targets.
The Iranians and Kurds know only too well his quickness to use chemical agents.
I wasn't there in the Gulf, but I've had friends who contracted the Gulf War Syndrome and more than one has told me of their NBC alarms going off and their M8 strips changing colour. One reported to me of having his position subjected to low-order burst artillery shelling with a yellowish cloud released followed by NBC alarms activated. Perhaps his forces did do some local area releases. The chemicals were certainly on the front-line ready to be used if so ordered.
This dangerous fascination the American public has of quick Nintendo wars will someday have to pay a high cost in the face of a determined enemy. The American public has come to believe that war can be safe, except for an unlucky few. What would the public say of just one battle that costs over 2,500 dead and 5,000 wounded? Only a nation embued with strong resolve and determination to see a fight through to the bitter end will win such a war.
It has been a long time since any nation has tried to fight the United States on its own soil. We've seen how vulnerable we are to fifth-column elements and the hieghts of fear they cause. For the martyr it is a great trade off. Lose their life but demoralize hundred of thousands to quit the fight. The anthrax had us not wanting to get any mail, snipers had us nervous and looking over shoulders suspecting anyone, everyone. Sustained, concentrated efforts like these will have tremendous effects on the government. Americans will either press for restraining the military and withdraw or green-light the President to do anything and everything to end the war swiftly no matter how much blood has to flow in the sand.
American patriots are not knocking down the Armed Forces recruiter's doors to have a swing at Saddam or Al-Qada. Let the machines do the dirty work. We'll watch CNN to announce the game score and MSNBC to provide the play-by-play of current and future war plans with their panel of retired generals and think-tank PhD's. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 13, 2002 - 03:42 PM
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| Ron wrote: |
American patriots are not knocking down the Armed Forces recruiter's doors to have a swing at Saddam or Al-Qada. Let the machines do the dirty work. We'll watch CNN to announce the game score and MSNBC to provide the play-by-play of current and future war plans with their panel of retired generals and think-tank PhD's. |
All true. I've also been struck by how quickly we've come to view a dozen dead in a war as a tremendous loss of life.
Your last paragraph reminds me of a sci fi story I read earlier this year. The message of that story was that if one isn't willing to risk one's life--if one is only willing to send in machines and fight from a distance--perhaps the war shouldn't be fought to begin with. True moral commitment to a cause should mean a willingness to accept the risk of death. Perhaps that should be the litmus test of support for a war.
Diane |
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joains |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 13, 2002 - 04:08 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 15653
Location: subject to change
Status: Offline
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| Ron wrote: | I've always considered the Iraqi behaviour in the Gulf Was as puzzling. Iraqi forces easily took Kuwait without much protest from Saudi Arabia. If Saddam had any Muslim agenda beyond territorial aquisition of Kuwait he could have continued into Saudi Arabia. Instead he held a World War I style trench line defense at the border. Saddam placed mostly conscripts, not regular army in those positions.
Another puzzle is the restraint from large scale use of chemical weapons. It is well known to the US military that Saddam has no qualms about its employment, both on civillian and military targets.
The Iranians and Kurds know only too well his quickness to use chemical agents.
I wasn't there in the Gulf, but I've had friends who contracted the Gulf War Syndrome and more than one has told me of their NBC alarms going off and their M8 strips changing colour. One reported to me of having his position subjected to low-order burst artillery shelling with a yellowish cloud released followed by NBC alarms activated. Perhaps his forces did do some local area releases. The chemicals were certainly on the front-line ready to be used if so ordered.
This dangerous fascination the American public has of quick Nintendo wars will someday have to pay a high cost in the face of a determined enemy. The American public has come to believe that war can be safe, except for an unlucky few. What would the public say of just one battle that costs over 2,500 dead and 5,000 wounded? Only a nation embued with strong resolve and determination to see a fight through to the bitter end will win such a war.
It has been a long time since any nation has tried to fight the United States on its own soil. We've seen how vulnerable we are to fifth-column elements and the hieghts of fear they cause. For the martyr it is a great trade off. Lose their life but demoralize hundred of thousands to quit the fight. The anthrax had us not wanting to get any mail, snipers had us nervous and looking over shoulders suspecting anyone, everyone. Sustained, concentrated efforts like these will have tremendous effects on the government. Americans will either press for restraining the military and withdraw or green-light the President to do anything and everything to end the war swiftly no matter how much blood has to flow in the sand.
American patriots are not knocking down the Armed Forces recruiter's doors to have a swing at Saddam or Al-Qada. Let the machines do the dirty work. We'll watch CNN to announce the game score and MSNBC to provide the play-by-play of current and future war plans with their panel of retired generals and think-tank PhD's. |
To make a overly simple assement here, we already know the game here, Some of us think Bush and the oil companies are calling the shots while others think maybe the price of oil is being played hostage on the world market by the Saudi's themselves. To each his own. |
_________________
...........Either we are TREKing together or we are Treking apart. There is no in-between.............
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