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Post subject:
 Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:58 PM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 9293
Location: "It isn't that they can't see the solution. It is that they can't see the problem."~ G.K.C
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| rag451 wrote: | | DOC wrote: |
Nicely worded; I'll take it that you were in the service? Which one, if I may?
Doc |
I'd prefer to keep that aspect of my life, at the moment, out of view. 
Robert |
I can respect that answer but I would feel more confident in your finding if I or we (BBS Crew) knew your experience. Robert it would be beneficial to you (just a positive note)
Doc |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 12:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| DOC wrote: | | rag451 wrote: | | DOC wrote: |
Nicely worded; I'll take it that you were in the service? Which one, if I may?
Doc |
I'd prefer to keep that aspect of my life, at the moment, out of view.
Robert |
I can respect that answer but I would feel more confident in your finding if I or we (BBS Crew) knew your experience. Robert it would be beneficial to you (just a positive note)
Doc |
*smiles* My experience...my experience... Well, my feelings today for the veterans of yesterday are expressed in the political posts that I author, and they are expressed in the undying love and devotion I give to my country.
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 12:11 AM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 9293
Location: "It isn't that they can't see the solution. It is that they can't see the problem."~ G.K.C
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| rag451 wrote: | | DOC wrote: | | rag451 wrote: | | DOC wrote: |
Nicely worded; I'll take it that you were in the service? Which one, if I may?
Doc |
I'd prefer to keep that aspect of my life, at the moment, out of view.
Robert |
I can respect that answer but I would feel more confident in your finding if I or we (BBS Crew) knew your experience. Robert it would be beneficial to you (just a positive note)
Doc |
*smiles* My experience...my experience... Well, my feelings today for the veterans of yesterday are expressed in the political posts that I author, and they are expressed in the undying love and devotion I give to my country.
Robert |
Ummm a true politician, avoiding the question 
Your good 
Take care,
Doc |
_________________
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 12:15 AM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| *diane* wrote: | Rag--
Even if I wanted to be a combatant, you perhaps overlook that my government has neatly prevented it, unless a war in the states brings me into the position of being a civilian combatant.
As for what I know about war:
From my albeit indirect perspective, I've had first hand experience with several war casualties. My exhusband, a Vietnam vet, was an alcoholic who had nightmares most nights. My grandfather, who fought in the Korean Conflict, returned to duty in Vietnam so that his son, my father, would be shipped home. My grandfather did his Vietnam tour on a river gunboat. He died from the aftereffects of Agent Orange when I was 13. And for what? For politics? To stop the domino effect of communism in the East? No. He exchanged his life for his son's.
No, I do not trust the CIA. No, I do not believe that the motives of my government are always honorable. But that doesn't mean that if asked, I'd be any less willing to die to defend this country from a REAL threat than some red-white-and-blue, right wing, Oliver North wannabe.
Diane |
Male or female, young or old -- you can do a lot for your country by volunteering.
The threat has been proven, and Saddam Hussein is his name. Oliver North, and whatever crimes he committed, are moot, as right now, thousands of miles from there, there lay, in bunkers, hundreds, perhaps thousands, of pounds of biological and chemical weapons. Oliver North's only impact on society today is his mediocre duties as a so-called "War Correspondent" on Cable TV.
I have a cousin who was shot down twice in Vietnam, and an uncle who fought in three theatres of WWII. I can't even begin to recall how many metals they've been awarded. My [word] was on the first hospital ship into Tokyo after WWII ended, and one of his cousins was on the first Marine landing into Japan after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were decimated. Two of my [word]'s sisters, along with her, were a part of an ambulance team in Brisbane, Australia, responsible for the transport and care of wounded GIs. I know war, intimately, and like a tornado, you can smell its perfume on the breeze.
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 12:16 AM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| DOC wrote: | | rag451 wrote: | | DOC wrote: | | rag451 wrote: | | DOC wrote: |
Nicely worded; I'll take it that you were in the service? Which one, if I may?
Doc |
I'd prefer to keep that aspect of my life, at the moment, out of view.
Robert |
I can respect that answer but I would feel more confident in your finding if I or we (BBS Crew) knew your experience. Robert it would be beneficial to you (just a positive note)
Doc |
*smiles* My experience...my experience... Well, my feelings today for the veterans of yesterday are expressed in the political posts that I author, and they are expressed in the undying love and devotion I give to my country.
Robert |
Ummm a true politician, avoiding the question
Your good
Take care,
Doc |
*g* I've done a few things, here and there.
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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rag451 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 12:17 AM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| bongborg wrote: | | *diane* wrote: | Rag--
Even if I wanted to be a combatant, you perhaps overlook that my government has neatly prevented it, unless a war in the states brings me into the position of being a civilian combatant.
As for what I know about war:
From my albeit indirect perspective, I've had first hand experience with several war casualties. My exhusband, a Vietnam vet, was an alcoholic who had nightmares most nights. My grandfather, who fought in the Korean Conflict, returned to duty in Vietnam so that his son, my father, would be shipped home. My grandfather did his Vietnam tour on a river gunboat. He died from the aftereffects of Agent Orange when I was 13. And for what? For politics? To stop the domino effect of communism in the East? No. He exchanged his life for his son's.
No, I do not trust the CIA. No, I do not believe that the motives of my government are always honorable. But that doesn't mean that if asked, I'd be any less willing to die to defend this country from a REAL threat than some red-white-and-blue, right wing, Oliver North wannabe.
Diane |
The flag waving, rightwing, Ollie North wannabes ARE the real threat... |
And here I was, thinking that Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, and Yassir Arafat were threats. Geez, I was soooo wrong.
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 12:23 AM
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| rag451 wrote: |
Male or female, young or old -- you can do a lot for your country by volunteering.
The threat has been proven, and Saddam Hussein is his name. Oliver North, and whatever crimes he committed, are moot, as right now, thousands of miles from there, there lay, in bunkers, hundreds, perhaps thousands, of pounds of biological and chemical weapons. Oliver North's only impact on society today is his mediocre duties as a so-called "War Correspondent" on Cable TV.
I have a cousin who was shot down twice in Vietnam, and an uncle who fought in three theatres of WWII. I can't even begin to recall how many metals they've been awarded. My [word] was on the first hospital ship into Tokyo after WWII ended, and one of his cousins was on the first Marine landing into Japan after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were decimated. Two of my [word]'s sisters, along with her, were a part of an ambulance team in Brisbane, Australia, responsible for the transport and care of wounded GIs. I know war, intimately, and like a tornado, you can smell its perfume on the breeze.
Robert |
How unfortunate that you haven't seen my resume, or you'd recognize that I'm already aware of the concept of volunteering. In the purely political arena, I used to regularly work at the polls. I've also worked in programs aimed at teenagers wanting to become involved in radio and with Brownie scouts wanting to learn math and science. Much of my eduation work is volunteer in the sense that I will tutor students outside of class when asked for no compensation. I also donate money to the ACLU, which works to protect the civil rights of Americans. I've written more than one letter to my representatives. I do participate in the democratic society, if you get my drift.
And did you bother to read the quote of Bush's on that page? "..people who speak up for their beliefs and are willing to protect the weak," or something like that. Yet, you and others on this board have consistently slammed me for doing just that. Someone on here (who I'll leave nameless) had the audacity to tell me once that if I wasn't the direct victim of an injustice, I was just being a pest to 'seek out victims to protect.'
Anyway, keep your opinion, I'll keep mine.
Diane |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 12:33 AM
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This account has been Permanently Banned
Joined: Oct 26, 2002
Posts: 3515
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| rag451 wrote: |
I have a cousin who was shot down twice in Vietnam, and an uncle who fought in three theatres of WWII. I can't even begin to recall how many metals they've been awarded. My [word] was on the first hospital ship into Tokyo after WWII ended, and one of his cousins was on the first Marine landing into Japan after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were decimated. Two of my [word]'s sisters, along with her, were a part of an ambulance team in Brisbane, Australia, responsible for the transport and care of wounded GIs. I know war, intimately, and like a tornado, you can smell its perfume on the breeze.
Robert |
If you are still coyly offering no personal experience of service, then I'd say you know war anecdotally, and as for your "perfumey" metaphor, the only thing I smell is something I used to step in in the pasture. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 12:42 AM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| *diane* wrote: | | rag451 wrote: |
Male or female, young or old -- you can do a lot for your country by volunteering.
The threat has been proven, and Saddam Hussein is his name. Oliver North, and whatever crimes he committed, are moot, as right now, thousands of miles from there, there lay, in bunkers, hundreds, perhaps thousands, of pounds of biological and chemical weapons. Oliver North's only impact on society today is his mediocre duties as a so-called "War Correspondent" on Cable TV.
I have a cousin who was shot down twice in Vietnam, and an uncle who fought in three theatres of WWII. I can't even begin to recall how many metals they've been awarded. My [word] was on the first hospital ship into Tokyo after WWII ended, and one of his cousins was on the first Marine landing into Japan after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were decimated. Two of my [word]'s sisters, along with her, were a part of an ambulance team in Brisbane, Australia, responsible for the transport and care of wounded GIs. I know war, intimately, and like a tornado, you can smell its perfume on the breeze.
Robert |
How unfortunate that you haven't seen my resume, or you'd recognize that I'm already aware of the concept of volunteering. In the purely political arena, I used to regularly work at the polls. I've also worked in programs aimed at teenagers wanting to become involved in radio and with Brownie scouts wanting to learn math and science. Much of my eduation work is volunteer in the sense that I will tutor students outside of class when asked for no compensation. I also donate money to the ACLU, which works to protect the civil rights of Americans. I've written more than one letter to my representatives. I do participate in the democratic society, if you get my drift.
And did you bother to read the quote of Bush's on that page? "..people who speak up for their beliefs and are willing to protect the weak," or something like that. Yet, you and others on this board have consistently slammed me for doing just that. Someone on here (who I'll leave nameless) had the audacity to tell me once that if I wasn't the direct victim of an injustice, I was just being a pest to 'seek out victims to protect.'
Anyway, keep your opinion, I'll keep mine.
Diane |
I like it that you volunteer. I think that, beyond politics, you are a nice enough person. I won't bother posting my resume, as I know that it wouldn't woo anyone, but just know that I've done my fair share, and then some. Suffice to say, I donate to the betterment of the arts. There are so few educated people in the world today, and even fewer who have enriched their lives with art, science, history, and music -- I want to try and help them learn.
Politics, to me, is something that should, and is, taken very seriously. When I see people like you who do not listen to my brand of 'reason', I have to try very hard to keep my temper in check. My opinions on this board have always been based on established fact and rooted ni sources which I have quoted numerous times. My word should not be held in dispute, but I am glad that it is, because, each time that happens, I always enjoy proving my own virtues to be true.
Yes, speak for the weak, but make sure that those who are weak are justly so, and not of their own making. I have no sympathy for the common bum who won't come out from under the bridge to make something of himself. In Fort Worth, there used to be a bridge that spanned two miles through the south part of downtown. Under I-30, on Saturday and Sunday mornings, you could find up to a hundred homeless and unemployed persons seeking any menial task that they could find. Some of them, I'm sure, are sick and unable to care for themselves, but I know that others are there because they are too lazy to care for themselves. Also, make sure that the weak are not people of evil, like Saddam Hussein. Don't consort with the weak unless they can do and be nothing but weak. Then, and only then, you must fight for them so that they can better themselves and one day help others who are downtrodden.
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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rag451 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 12:43 AM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| bongborg wrote: | | rag451 wrote: |
I have a cousin who was shot down twice in Vietnam, and an uncle who fought in three theatres of WWII. I can't even begin to recall how many metals they've been awarded. My [word] was on the first hospital ship into Tokyo after WWII ended, and one of his cousins was on the first Marine landing into Japan after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were decimated. Two of my [word]'s sisters, along with her, were a part of an ambulance team in Brisbane, Australia, responsible for the transport and care of wounded GIs. I know war, intimately, and like a tornado, you can smell its perfume on the breeze.
Robert |
If you are still coyly offering no personal experience of service, then I'd say you know war anecdotally, and as for your "perfumey" metaphor, the only thing I smell is something I used to step in in the pasture. |
Then, I suggest you look under your shoe before walking in. Remember, "Sh** happens."
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 01:00 AM
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| rag451 wrote: |
I like it that you volunteer. I think that, beyond politics, you are a nice enough person. I won't bother posting my resume, as I know that it wouldn't woo anyone, but just know that I've done my fair share, and then some. Suffice to say, I donate to the betterment of the arts. There are so few educated people in the world today, and even fewer who have enriched their lives with art, science, history, and music -- I want to try and help them learn.
Politics, to me, is something that should, and is, taken very seriously. When I see people like you who do not listen to my brand of 'reason', I have to try very hard to keep my temper in check. My opinions on this board have always been based on established fact and rooted ni sources which I have quoted numerous times. My word should not be held in dispute, but I am glad that it is, because, each time that happens, I always enjoy proving my own virtues to be true.
Yes, speak for the weak, but make sure that those who are weak are justly so, and not of their own making. I have no sympathy for the common bum who won't come out from under the bridge to make something of himself. In Fort Worth, there used to be a bridge that spanned two miles through the south part of downtown. Under I-30, on Saturday and Sunday mornings, you could find up to a hundred homeless and unemployed persons seeking any menial task that they could find. Some of them, I'm sure, are sick and unable to care for themselves, but I know that others are there because they are too lazy to care for themselves. Also, make sure that the weak are not people of evil, like Saddam Hussein. Don't consort with the weak unless they can do and be nothing but weak. Then, and only then, you must fight for them so that they can better themselves and one day help others who are downtrodden.
Robert |
Your word should not be held in dispute, why? Others present data to back up their opinions too. What (besides ego) qualifies your opinion as indisputable "reason", but others' as false? I can't see that you've "proven" your "virtues to be true," only that you can gather facts to support a viewpoint. Facts can just as easily be gathered to support viewpoints counter to yours.
I recognize that you are older than I am, and as a male of your generation you may not be aware that your patterns of speech sometimes come across as patronizing. I am a well educated adult. I don't need to be presented with a fourth grade lesson on judgment calls about which of the weak to defend.
Diane |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 01:02 AM
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This account has been Permanently Banned
Joined: Oct 26, 2002
Posts: 3515
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| rag451 wrote: |
I like it that you volunteer. I think that, beyond politics, you are a nice enough person. I won't bother posting my resume, as I know that it wouldn't woo anyone, but just know that I've done my fair share, and then some. Suffice to say, I donate to the betterment of the arts. There are so few educated people in the world today, and even fewer who have enriched their lives with art, science, history, and music -- I want to try and help them learn.
Politics, to me, is something that should, and is, taken very seriously. When I see people like you who do not listen to my brand of 'reason', I have to try very hard to keep my temper in check. My opinions on this board have always been based on established fact and rooted ni sources which I have quoted numerous times. My word should not be held in dispute, but I am glad that it is, because, each time that happens, I always enjoy proving my own virtues to be true.
Yes, speak for the weak, but make sure that those who are weak are justly so, and not of their own making. I have no sympathy for the common bum who won't come out from under the bridge to make something of himself. In Fort Worth, there used to be a bridge that spanned two miles through the south part of downtown. Under I-30, on Saturday and Sunday mornings, you could find up to a hundred homeless and unemployed persons seeking any menial task that they could find. Some of them, I'm sure, are sick and unable to care for themselves, but I know that others are there because they are too lazy to care for themselves. Also, make sure that the weak are not people of evil, like Saddam Hussein. Don't consort with the weak unless they can do and be nothing but weak. Then, and only then, you must fight for them so that they can better themselves and one day help others who are downtrodden.
Robert |
Many of those bums under the bridge are Vietnam veterans. You are "not to be disputed"? You are bringing us the True Word, then?
How nice for you, to be omniscient. It must be a terrible burden for you though, what with all the people in the world who have opinions you know to be false, and you must correct them all. I feel I must tell you, as you are the chief promoter of these political threads, that in conversation with the moderator, he has told me that likely the days of political discourse here are numbered. I think I will welcome that eventuality. I enjoy having a good political discussion. I do not enjoy being sneered at, dismissed as an idiot, called a traitor, or listening to you spew your drivel at anyone who has a different opinion. Have a nice Veteran's Day. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 01:10 AM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| *diane* wrote: |
Your word should not be held in dispute, why? Others present data to back up their opinions too. What (besides ego) qualifies your opinion as indisputable "reason", but others' as false? I can't see that you've "proven" your "virtues to be true," only that you can gather facts to support a viewpoint. Facts can just as easily be gathered to support viewpoints counter to yours.
I recognize that you are older than I am, and as a male of your generation you may not be aware that your patterns of speech sometimes come across as patronizing. I am a well educated adult. I don't need to be presented with a fourth grade lesson on judgment calls about which of the weak to defend.
Diane |
Well, I look at it this way. For someone of my generation, I am very well-informed. I watch the news every day, I read several newspapers, I listen to Talk Radio, and every so often I venture out onto the net to find an interesting article. I usually stay with either CNN or Fox. I can't understand PMSNBC's website well enough to waste my time with it.
Yes, ego plays a part of it. I'm a well-educated person, and an ego comes with the territory, along with a certain arrogance. I, at least, have the sense to recognize that I am, rather than be oblivious to it. *smile*
I would have to argue with you when you said that others present valid data to back themselves up. In all of the political discussions that you and I have been in, I have yet to see you post more than the random link to some biased website whose facts can wholy be disputed. That is why, most of the time, I try to go to either official government websites, or major news media outlets. Dave, the smart one of the Conservative Bunch, has the good sense to go to the BBC. I must admit I rarely go through European websites.
Anyhow...
Yes, my "patterns of speech" are from an era in the past, and it's just my nature to use the diction I was taught as a child and was acustomed to seeing through my life. I guess that I need to learn the hip and groovy words youngsters use today. I must "word up to my homies". Ah, to be young again... wait... no... I don't want to go there!
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 01:20 AM
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| rag451 wrote: |
I would have to argue with you when you said that others present valid data to back themselves up. In all of the political discussions that you and I have been in, I have yet to see you post more than the random link to some biased website whose facts can wholy be disputed. That is why, most of the time, I try to go to either official government websites, or major news media outlets. Dave, the smart one of the Conservative Bunch, has the good sense to go to the BBC. I must admit I rarely go through European websites.
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Clearly you are making things up off the top of your head for effect, since that is not at all what I do. I challenge you to go through even the last week of my posts, and prove what you've just said (since you are so into proofs).
Diane |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 01:22 AM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| bongborg wrote: | | rag451 wrote: |
I like it that you volunteer. I think that, beyond politics, you are a nice enough person. I won't bother posting my resume, as I know that it wouldn't woo anyone, but just know that I've done my fair share, and then some. Suffice to say, I donate to the betterment of the arts. There are so few educated people in the world today, and even fewer who have enriched their lives with art, science, history, and music -- I want to try and help them learn.
Politics, to me, is something that should, and is, taken very seriously. When I see people like you who do not listen to my brand of 'reason', I have to try very hard to keep my temper in check. My opinions on this board have always been based on established fact and rooted ni sources which I have quoted numerous times. My word should not be held in dispute, but I am glad that it is, because, each time that happens, I always enjoy proving my own virtues to be true.
Yes, speak for the weak, but make sure that those who are weak are justly so, and not of their own making. I have no sympathy for the common bum who won't come out from under the bridge to make something of himself. In Fort Worth, there used to be a bridge that spanned two miles through the south part of downtown. Under I-30, on Saturday and Sunday mornings, you could find up to a hundred homeless and unemployed persons seeking any menial task that they could find. Some of them, I'm sure, are sick and unable to care for themselves, but I know that others are there because they are too lazy to care for themselves. Also, make sure that the weak are not people of evil, like Saddam Hussein. Don't consort with the weak unless they can do and be nothing but weak. Then, and only then, you must fight for them so that they can better themselves and one day help others who are downtrodden.
Robert |
Many of those bums under the bridge are Vietnam veterans. You are "not to be disputed"? You are bringing us the True Word, then?
How nice for you, to be omniscient. It must be a terrible burden for you though, what with all the people in the world who have opinions you know to be false, and you must correct them all. I feel I must tell you, as you are the chief promoter of these political threads, that in conversation with the moderator, he has told me that likely the days of political discourse here are numbered. I think I will welcome that eventuality. I enjoy having a good political discussion. I do not enjoy being sneered at, dismissed as an idiot, called a traitor, or listening to you spew your drivel at anyone who has a different opinion. Have a nice Veteran's Day. |
Political discussions will, eventually, come to an end. I have never even attempted to dispute that. When they do, then I'll be more than happy to start posting threads about Star Trek. It's funny, at least to me, because I never have once 'started' a political thread. All I have ever done is responded to threads about politics, or ones connected to them, and spoken about politics.
Yes, I know there are Vietnam Veterans who are under some of these bridges. I hope you'll notice what I said, "Some of them, I'm sure, are sick and unable to care for themselves...." Many of these vets are suffering from the traumatic events with which they either witnessed or took part in. I hope that, one day, they can get the help that they need. I know that there are many of them who cannot be helped, because it was those that tried to help them that drove them to the gutters in the first place. Still, I see so many of them who for some reason won't help themselves, and it is because of that that my pity has a limit. When I see people, standing on the streets with cardboard signs saying, "Sick Vietnam Vet. Lost leg in war, needs food," then I won't help him. There are routes to go through if they need help, including the Veterans Affairs Administration. It is a shame that, nine times out of ten, you give some of these people carrying signs a fiver, and they end up going right down the street, into a liquor store. Once, I did give someone a ten dollar bill, out of the goodness of my heart, and while waiting at a stop light, I saw them walk straight into the convienence store, and, not even three minutes later, walk out with a bottle in a paper sack. He went to a different corner, hiding the bottle behind a light post. *shakes head* That was the last time I donated to a bum on a sidewalk. Nowadays, if I feel like I need to give, I give it to people like the United Way and the Red Cross.
Anyhow, thank you for wishing me a nice Veteran's Day, now that it is just about over. *s* I hope you have one too.
Robert |
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"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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rag451 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 01:25 AM
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Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| *diane* wrote: | | rag451 wrote: |
I would have to argue with you when you said that others present valid data to back themselves up. In all of the political discussions that you and I have been in, I have yet to see you post more than the random link to some biased website whose facts can wholy be disputed. That is why, most of the time, I try to go to either official government websites, or major news media outlets. Dave, the smart one of the Conservative Bunch, has the good sense to go to the BBC. I must admit I rarely go through European websites.
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Clearly you are making things up off the top of your head for effect, since that is not at all what I do. I challenge you to go through even the last week of my posts, and prove what you've just said (since you are so into proofs).
Diane |
It'll take me a few minutes, but I will...
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 02:01 AM
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| rag451 wrote: | | *diane* wrote: | | rag451 wrote: |
I would have to argue with you when you said that others present valid data to back themselves up. In all of the political discussions that you and I have been in, I have yet to see you post more than the random link to some biased website whose facts can wholy be disputed. That is why, most of the time, I try to go to either official government websites, or major news media outlets. Dave, the smart one of the Conservative Bunch, has the good sense to go to the BBC. I must admit I rarely go through European websites.
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Clearly you are making things up off the top of your head for effect, since that is not at all what I do. I challenge you to go through even the last week of my posts, and prove what you've just said (since you are so into proofs).
Diane |
It'll take me a few minutes, but I will...
Robert |
So, how's that list of the random, biased and easily refuted websites I use to support my arguments with coming along?
Diane |
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rag451 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 02:01 AM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| *diane* wrote: | | rag451 wrote: |
I would have to argue with you when you said that others present valid data to back themselves up. In all of the political discussions that you and I have been in, I have yet to see you post more than the random link to some biased website whose facts can wholy be disputed. That is why, most of the time, I try to go to either official government websites, or major news media outlets. Dave, the smart one of the Conservative Bunch, has the good sense to go to the BBC. I must admit I rarely go through European websites.
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Clearly you are making things up off the top of your head for effect, since that is not at all what I do. I challenge you to go through even the last week of my posts, and prove what you've just said (since you are so into proofs).
Diane |
I do owe you an apology. I sifted through eighteen pages of your past posts, some two hundred and seventy or so items, examining links. The closest I could find was of a community, but as with all communities, they are suspect to their own opinions, much like this one.
You and BongBorg have been my two staunchest opponents on this board since it came back online a few weeks ago, and in my examination of threads, ranging from Barbara Streisand to Warmongers, I found very few links from you at all. My insistence of your linkage to questionable websites was wrong, and like I said, I apologize. I was wrong for saying it, and in doing so, damaged my own credibility.
The one thing, though, that I did find, was that in having so few links, you opened yourself up to criticism of your ideas and political views. Post after post, you insinuated, time and again, how corrupt governments of the past and present have been in the United States, yet never once did you back yourself up with any evidence in the form of links or otherwise. All you had was a tawdry list filled with accusations and the pointing out of blame-filled, non-existent problems, many times not countering them with solutions. In many instanses, people like myself, Erifah, and Dave confronted you about it, and every time you acted the skilled politician, rebutting against their points with more accusations. You are nothing but clever, and I do applaud your method of posting. It does provide my feeble old mind much confusion when I have to go out and find sources to refute yours. *g*
I am sorry, though, for accusing you of placing links that you did not. Often I confuse you and Bongborg (why -- hell if I know), and in the process of examining your own posts, I found that many of the links which lingered in my mind were his, and not yours.
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 02:15 AM
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| rag451 wrote: |
I do owe you an apology. I sifted through eighteen pages of your past posts, some two hundred and seventy or so items, examining links. The closest I could find was of a community, but as with all communities, they are suspect to their own opinions, much like this one.
You and BongBorg have been my two staunchest opponents on this board since it came back online a few weeks ago, and in my examination of threads, ranging from Barbara Streisand to Warmongers, I found very few links from you at all. My insistence of your linkage to questionable websites was wrong, and like I said, I apologize. I was wrong for saying it, and in doing so, damaged my own credibility.
The one thing, though, that I did find, was that in having so few links, you opened yourself up to criticism of your ideas and political views. Post after post, you insinuated, time and again, how corrupt governments of the past and present have been in the United States, yet never once did you back yourself up with any evidence in the form of links or otherwise. All you had was a tawdry list filled with accusations and the pointing out of blame-filled, non-existent problems, many times not countering them with solutions. In many instanses, people like myself, Erifah, and Dave confronted you about it, and every time you acted the skilled politician, rebutting against their points with more accusations. You are nothing but clever, and I do applaud your method of posting. It does provide my feeble old mind much confusion when I have to go out and find sources to refute yours. *g*
I am sorry, though, for accusing you of placing links that you did not. Often I confuse you and Bongborg (why -- hell if I know), and in the process of examining your own posts, I found that many of the links which lingered in my mind were his, and not yours.
Robert |
Thank you for admitting your error. I am generally very careful to look for credible sites when I do post links. I am glad you took the time to see that.
As for my insinuations, "time and again, [of] how corrupt governments of the past and present have been in the United States," I really don't think I'm quite that bad (I skimmed my past posts too, and most are chit chat about non political things). I've noticed that there is a decided lack of links on your part supporting the honorable works of the CIA, for instance; only your opinion that they do good things. And, regarding my supposed "tawdry list filled with accusations and the pointing out of blame-filled, non-existent problems, many times not countering them with solutions", well, I disagree with that too. But, political differences will probably lead to you not recognizing as a problem things that I do. And, I do provide ideas for solutions from time to time, even if you fail to recognize them (or simply dismiss them) as such.
I think that your other points are matters of political difference and perception. I'll leave things at that.
Diane |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 02:24 AM
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Now, I had intended this thread to be a thoughtful, relatively neutral public interest post about soldiers celebrating Remembrance Day in a country where they are now in defense of people they were once at war with. I acknowledge that a statement like "I don't like war" is a political one, but I certainly didn't intend it as inflammatory. I intended this to perhaps be followed with comments like Sue's first, commenting on her concern for friends in service.
But, things have degenerated into another back-biting, vicious political mud sling fest, something which frankly offends me in a thread which I had other thoughts for when I started it.
I am therefore going to ask Paul if he will delete it. I feel that having an argument here was a bit like choosing a funeral as a place to sort out family animosities. I don't want this to remain on here, even if it means that the link to the story about the British soldiers is also removed. I'd like that to remain somewhere, but I'm afraid that if I post it again, I'll be attacked, again.
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rag451 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 02:26 AM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| *diane* wrote: |
Thank you for admitting your error. I am generally very careful to look for credible sites when I do post links. I am glad you took the time to see that.
As for my insinuations, "time and again, [of] how corrupt governments of the past and present have been in the United States," I really don't think I'm quite that bad (I skimmed my past posts too, and most are chit chat about non political things). I've noticed that there is a decided lack of posts supporting the honorable works of the CIA, for instance; only your opinion that they do good things. And, regarding my supposed "tawdry list filled with accusations and the pointing out of blame-filled, non-existent problems, many times not countering them with solutions", well, I disagree with that too. But, political differences will probably lead to you not recognizing as a problem things that I do. And, I do provide ideas for solutions from time to time, even if you fail to recognize them (or simply dismiss them) as such.
I think that your other points are matters of political difference and perception. I'll leave things at that.
Diane |
Yes, a lot of your posts are rather amusing, especially in some of the first threads of this new board, and in the Barbie Doll thread.
Your politics and mine will never agree, but there is this common decency among those who debate here that I have noticed, where if you make a point, contrary to that which was defined earlier in a thread, you try to back it up. If you can't, then you say you can't, and leave it at that.
Many times, I have written some god-awful, long-winded reply, only to find that when I go out to Yahoo and search for a valid site to accompany it, I can't. In that case, I usually do a bit of cursing, then a bit of backing up on my browser, though, I will admit to doing what you have done on a number of occasions where I cannot find a resource, yet I try to point people in a general direction to where they can find it.
You have been, most of the time, a decent enough person to talk to, that I don't want to attack you or your politics, but there are times when I see nothing backing it up except hate-filled accusations with no direction but 'up', and I feel it my duty to contradict you if only to point out the flaws in either your reasoning or otherwise.
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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Paul |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2002 - 03:04 AM
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Site Admin
Joined: Sep 23, 2002
Posts: 4900
Location: The Cyber Frontier
Status: Offline
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I'm going to post this commentary and then close this thread. Several times it went over a line and became a series of personal attacks for viewpoints that were just personal opinions and on their face harmless. It' seems to have mellowed but again we face a political thread where things go awry...these patterns keep repeating themselves...political discussions really bring out the best in the worst some people can be. It has to either stop or we won't be discussing them in the future.
RAG, I don't know what set you off today but let me just say that some of the things I read are apalling. War may be savage but there's a HUGE difference between WAR and commentary on War between what I assume to be "educated" adults. You have the right to have your own opinions but what you did was attack members today because their opinions differed from yours. THAT is wrong and if it happens again - you'll be history.
Diane, the best thing to do when things get heated is walk away from the conflict.
Things seem to be back on track but I'm REALLY getting tired of these Political thread fiascos. You know the rules, boys and girls - even Bill gave you guidelines for discussing politics on the board and you still get into it. YOu are slowly painting yourselves into a corner where the only way out will be to end political discussions on this board once and for all.
Think about it. |
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Paul@WilliamShatner.com
Paul is on Facebook
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