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Post subject: British soldiers celebrate Remembrance Day in Afghanistan
 Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 03:27 PM
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I found this London Times article on British observance of Remembrance Day in Afghanistan a good read. I especially found ironic the fact that the British have lost so many soldiers in the past fighting the Afghans, and have named one of their camps after a hero of the 19th century Afghan Wars. Politics is so fluid; you may kill someone in battle one year, and find yourself allied with their country another year...
I dislike war, but have nothing but respect for veterans.
Diane |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 04:26 PM
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I have a freind in Afghanistan right now, just hoping he's safe,
love sue |
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rag451 |
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Post subject: Re: British soldiers celebrate Remembrance Day in Afghanista
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 08:08 PM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| *diane* wrote: | I found this London Times article on British observance of Remembrance Day in Afghanistan a good read. I especially found ironic the fact that the British have lost so many soldiers in the past fighting the Afghans, and have named one of their camps after a hero of the 19th century Afghan Wars. Politics is so fluid; you may kill someone in battle one year, and find yourself allied with their country another year...
I dislike war, but have nothing but respect for veterans.
Diane |
What of veterans who go to fight war; what of them?
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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Post subject: Re: British soldiers celebrate Remembrance Day in Afghanista
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 08:11 PM
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| rag451 wrote: | | *diane* wrote: | I found this London Times article on British observance of Remembrance Day in Afghanistan a good read. I especially found ironic the fact that the British have lost so many soldiers in the past fighting the Afghans, and have named one of their camps after a hero of the 19th century Afghan Wars. Politics is so fluid; you may kill someone in battle one year, and find yourself allied with their country another year...
I dislike war, but have nothing but respect for veterans.
Diane |
What of veterans who go to fight war; what of them?
Robert |
As I said, I have nothing but respect for veterans. What are you getting at?
Diane |
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rag451 |
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Post subject: Re: British soldiers celebrate Remembrance Day in Afghanista
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 09:40 PM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| *diane* wrote: | | rag451 wrote: | | *diane* wrote: | I found this London Times article on British observance of Remembrance Day in Afghanistan a good read. I especially found ironic the fact that the British have lost so many soldiers in the past fighting the Afghans, and have named one of their camps after a hero of the 19th century Afghan Wars. Politics is so fluid; you may kill someone in battle one year, and find yourself allied with their country another year...
I dislike war, but have nothing but respect for veterans.
Diane |
What of veterans who go to fight war; what of them?
Robert |
As I said, I have nothing but respect for veterans. What are you getting at?
Diane |
Yes, but I find it difficult to believe that you have respect for them, because, thus far, all you've demonstrated is a lack of respect for the principles behind the wars in which they fought.
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 09:57 PM
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Well, that's just too damned bad. If you can't comprehend that someone would dislike war (and I'll bet many veterans share that feeling), yet respect the courage of people willing to do what they are required to do to survive in a bad situation, I don't know what to tell you. But given your condescending attitude, I don't feel compelled to explain my feelings to you beyond that. Your mind appears closed.
Diane |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:01 PM
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And furthermore, how DARE you say I've demonstrated a lack of respect for the principles for which wars have been fought? How many times have I put forth my opinion on this site about upholding the Constitution? How many people have I pissed off taking the side of those who are oppressed by occupying governments? I reminded people to vote. I've presented links to the Constitution and other documents on which our government was founded. And yet you are so blind, or just so mean in the lowest sense of the word, that you can't acknowledge that my patriotism is just as valid as yours? Your short sighted, narrow minded, prejudiced and self righteous attitude towards me is misplaced.
Diane |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:06 PM
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Just because often they were "lions led by donkeys", doesn't mean those who seek to avoid war disrespect the courage of lions...
love sue |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:14 PM
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Thank you, Sue.
There are wars which I believe have been just and unavoidable. There have been others which are petty, pointless, wasteful and avoidable. Those who fought and died bravely did so whether they were in one or the other.
Diane |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:16 PM
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Most of the time, the "poor, bloody infantry" had no choice as to whether to participate anyway. There's was "to do or die"..
love sue |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:21 PM
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This account has been Permanently Banned
Joined: Oct 26, 2002
Posts: 3515
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| *diane* wrote: | And furthermore, how DARE you say I've demonstrated a lack of respect for the principles for which wars have been fought? How many times have I put forth my opinion on this site about upholding the Constitution? How many people have I pissed off taking the side of those who are oppressed by occupying governments? I reminded people to vote. I've presented links to the Constitution and other documents on which our government was founded. And yet you are so blind, or just so mean in the lowest sense of the word, that you can't acknowledge that my patriotism is just as valid as yours? Your short sighted, narrow minded, prejudiced and self righteous attitude towards me is misplaced.
Diane |
I spent about 1/4 of my life so far in the military and always felt that the greatest purpose of my service was to help to prevent war by being ready for it and standing as deterrence. Some of us here glorify war when we should be glorifying peace. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:23 PM
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Isn't that the habit of non-combatants since time immemorial? There are so few causes in which I'd send my kids off to war, so I'm in no hurry to send anybody else's off either..
love sue |
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Post subject: Veterans Day
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:28 PM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 14758
Location: Georgia,USA
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Too many times war is glorified, war is all hell.
I watched Saving Private Ryan again recently. I think
Speilberg does a great job at showing the hell and waste of
war, while showing the human courage and bravery while
facing that hell.
Here is to my fathers only brother. I was named after James. He fought
and died as a 19 yr old marine at Iwo Jima 1945. |
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rag451 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:29 PM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| *diane* wrote: | And furthermore, how DARE you say I've demonstrated a lack of respect for the principles for which wars have been fought? How many times have I put forth my opinion on this site about upholding the Constitution? How many people have I pissed off taking the side of those who are oppressed by occupying governments? I reminded people to vote. I've presented links to the Constitution and other documents on which our government was founded. And yet you are so blind, or just so mean in the lowest sense of the word, that you can't acknowledge that my patriotism is just as valid as yours? Your short sighted, narrow minded, prejudiced and self righteous attitude towards me is misplaced.
Diane |
Ever read Tom Brokaw's The Greatest Generation 
War, my dear, is savage. For me, it is about protecting the lives of people who may never thank me, and its about the killing of 'the enemy' in order to preserve their own livelihood. We never ask for war, yet when we see it on the horizon, we embrace it as our duty to serve and protect those that are unable, or unwilling.
I have no doubt you are grateful for the rights granted to you, and I apologize if I was too astute in voicing my opinion, but have you any idea how much pain it has taken to secure those rights? When you speak out against agencies like the CIA, just to name one, you degrade their very purpose in saving lives. It is with the dozens of agencies that do their best to provide accurate information to the military that we also owe some of our thanks. In other threads, you have degraded these same people, distrusting them, casting them aside as liars, when they are the ones, the ones behind the scenes, that plan the battles beforehand, in order to save thousands, perhaps millions, of our troops. Landing our forces on the beaches of Normandy didn't just "happen", it was planned for weeks and months before it was executed. Believe me, and I speak from experience, I know...
What about the war we're about to go into? At this point, we know it'll happen. The signs are there, and they speak for themselves, yet you continually speak out about it, casting doubt upon our very reasons. That's okay, too, because the men and women who will sacrifice their lives will never know who we were, and they won't care, because it's about something bigger than one person; it's about that feeling they get in their heart when they salute their flag and say the pledge, and it's about the way in which they see their duty. It isn't the piece of cloth which bears thirteen stripes and fifty stars which men shed tears for, it is the overwhelming sense of pride and joy in knowing what that flag stands for.
We serve our country, not for glory, but for the cause of freedom; the same freedom that allows you and I to go back and forth with each other in the exchange of opinion and the very same freedom that allows us to vote for our leaders instead of bow before them when they take over.
What of Dwight D. Eisenhower? He was a Republican too, you know...
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:32 PM
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I think the point diane was making was that you don't need to fight for the flag to believe in everything it stands for...
love sue |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:35 PM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 9293
Location: "It isn't that they can't see the solution. It is that they can't see the problem."~ G.K.C
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| rag451 wrote: | | *diane* wrote: | And furthermore, how DARE you say I've demonstrated a lack of respect for the principles for which wars have been fought? How many times have I put forth my opinion on this site about upholding the Constitution? How many people have I pissed off taking the side of those who are oppressed by occupying governments? I reminded people to vote. I've presented links to the Constitution and other documents on which our government was founded. And yet you are so blind, or just so mean in the lowest sense of the word, that you can't acknowledge that my patriotism is just as valid as yours? Your short sighted, narrow minded, prejudiced and self righteous attitude towards me is misplaced.
Diane |
Ever read Tom Brokaw's The Greatest Generation
War, my dear, is savage. For me, it is about protecting the lives of people who may never thank me, and its about the killing of 'the enemy' in order to preserve their own livelihood. We never ask for war, yet when we see it on the horizon, we embrace it as our duty to serve and protect those that are unable, or unwilling.
I have no doubt you are grateful for the rights granted to you, and I apologize if I was too astute in voicing my opinion, but have you any idea how much pain it has taken to secure those rights? When you speak out against agencies like the CIA, just to name one, you degrade their very purpose in saving lives. It is with the dozens of agencies that do their best to provide accurate information to the military that we also owe some of our thanks. In other threads, you have degraded these same people, distrusting them, casting them aside as liars, when they are the ones, the ones behind the scenes, that plan the battles beforehand, in order to save thousands, perhaps millions, of our troops. Landing our forces on the beaches of Normandy didn't just "happen", it was planned for weeks and months before it was executed. Believe me, and I speak from experience, I know...
What about the war we're about to go into? At this point, we know it'll happen. The signs are there, and they speak for themselves, yet you continually speak out about it, casting doubt upon our very reasons. That's okay, too, because the men and women who will sacrifice their lives will never know who we were, and they won't care, because it's about something bigger than one person; it's about that feeling they get in their heart when they salute their flag and say the pledge, and it's about the way in which they see their duty. It isn't the piece of cloth which bears thirteen stripes and fifty stars which men shed tears for, it is the overwhelming sense of pride and joy in knowing what that flag stands for.
We serve our country, not for glory, but for the cause of freedom; the same freedom that allows you and I to go back and forth with each other in the exchange of opinion and the very same freedom that allows us to vote for our leaders instead of bow before them when they take over.
What of Dwight D. Eisenhower? He was a Republican too, you know...
Robert |
Nicely worded; I'll take it that you were in the service? Which one, if I may?
Doc |
_________________
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rag451 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:39 PM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| sueinbrum wrote: | I think the point diane was making was that you don't need to fight for the flag to believe in everything it stands for...
love sue |
No, you don't have to fight, and that is not the point I am attempting to make. What I am saying is that there is more to appreciate about war than the troops. We are the ones that had to have a gun in front of us, yet there were always people behind us, some of them secret, some of them not, that were plotting our moves. Those same organizations exist today, years later, and are responsible for planning it so there are the least amount of casualties.
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:41 PM
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This account has been Permanently Banned
Joined: Oct 26, 2002
Posts: 3515
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1. Rights are inalienable, like it says in the Declaration... they are not granted.
2. The CIA has fomented wars for it's own purposes and cost the lives of millions who never hurt us, and thousands of our own.
3. The CIA has spent years and millions of dollars trying to perfect mind control to end human freedom.
4. The CIA does indeed provide info for the prosecution of wars... and isn't it so accurate? Weren't they the ones who identified the Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia as a target? Do ya think that was just a boo-boo? |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:41 PM
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Unfortunately, the CIA is for a lot more than that, such as destabilising left-wing regimes and dirty tricks of all kinds
love sue |
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rag451 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:42 PM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| DOC wrote: |
Nicely worded; I'll take it that you were in the service? Which one, if I may?
Doc |
I'd prefer to keep that aspect of my life, at the moment, out of view. 
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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rag451 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:44 PM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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| bongborg wrote: | 1. Rights are inalienable, like it says in the Declaration... they are not granted.
2. The CIA has fomented wars for it's own purposes and cost the lives of millions who never hurt us, and thousands of our own.
3. The CIA has spent years and millions of dollars trying to perfect mind control to end human freedom.
4. The CIA does indeed provide info for the prosecution of wars... and isn't it so accurate? Weren't they the ones who identified the Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia as a target? Do ya think that was just a boo-boo? |
And, I'm asuming, you know everything the CIA does? How fascinating... *sees Sue's message* And there's another. Wow, I'm astonished how many people outside of the CIA know precisely what the CIA stands for, fights for, and does.
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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rag451 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:45 PM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 352
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
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Before anyone mentions it... yes, I know the CIA wasn't around during WWII.
Robert |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:47 PM
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Rag--
Even if I wanted to be a combatant, you perhaps overlook that my government has neatly prevented it, unless a war in the states brings me into the position of being a civilian combatant.
As for what I know about war:
From my albeit indirect perspective, I've had first hand experience with several war casualties. My exhusband, a Vietnam vet, was an alcoholic who had nightmares most nights. My grandfather, who fought in the Korean Conflict, returned to duty in Vietnam so that his son, my father, would be shipped home. My grandfather did his Vietnam tour on a river gunboat. He died from the aftereffects of Agent Orange when I was 13. And for what? For politics? To stop the domino effect of communism in the East? No. He exchanged his life for his son's.
No, I do not trust the CIA. No, I do not believe that the motives of my government are always honorable. But that doesn't mean that if asked, I'd be any less willing to die to defend this country from a REAL threat than some red-white-and-blue, right wing, Oliver North wannabe.
Diane |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:49 PM
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This account has been Permanently Banned
Joined: Oct 26, 2002
Posts: 3515
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| rag451 wrote: | | bongborg wrote: | 1. Rights are inalienable, like it says in the Declaration... they are not granted.
2. The CIA has fomented wars for it's own purposes and cost the lives of millions who never hurt us, and thousands of our own.
3. The CIA has spent years and millions of dollars trying to perfect mind control to end human freedom.
4. The CIA does indeed provide info for the prosecution of wars... and isn't it so accurate? Weren't they the ones who identified the Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia as a target? Do ya think that was just a boo-boo? |
And, I'm asuming, you know everything the CIA does? How fascinating... *sees Sue's message* And there's another. Wow, I'm astonished how many people outside of the CIA know precisely what the CIA stands for, fights for, and does.
Robert |
The records of MK-ULTRA are public now... so are many of the other records of the criminal and terroristic activities of the CIA. If you care to look, that is...if you want to keep your present mindset, better not. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2002 - 10:51 PM
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This account has been Permanently Banned
Joined: Oct 26, 2002
Posts: 3515
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| *diane* wrote: | Rag--
Even if I wanted to be a combatant, you perhaps overlook that my government has neatly prevented it, unless a war in the states brings me into the position of being a civilian combatant.
As for what I know about war:
From my albeit indirect perspective, I've had first hand experience with several war casualties. My exhusband, a Vietnam vet, was an alcoholic who had nightmares most nights. My grandfather, who fought in the Korean Conflict, returned to duty in Vietnam so that his son, my father, would be shipped home. My grandfather did his Vietnam tour on a river gunboat. He died from the aftereffects of Agent Orange when I was 13. And for what? For politics? To stop the domino effect of communism in the East? No. He exchanged his life for his son's.
No, I do not trust the CIA. No, I do not believe that the motives of my government are always honorable. But that doesn't mean that if asked, I'd be any less willing to die to defend this country from a REAL threat than some red-white-and-blue, right wing, Oliver North wannabe.
Diane |
The flag waving, rightwing, Ollie North wannabes ARE the real threat... |
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