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SarahofBorg |
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Post subject: My latest analysis of the Kirk/Spock/McCoy relationship
 Posted: Nov 04, 2002 - 04:51 AM
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My inspiration comes thanks to my mini-mates figures, which I just can not put down!
I was playin around, putin em in a thousand differant situations. Finnally, I decided that I ran out of ideas because I didn't have enough levels.
So I started puting some here and there (like in my previous Minimates thread) but eventually ran out of situations that way as well. I needed even more levels!
So I grabbed some old building blocks from when I was a kid (never know when they'll come in handy next! Always have a set of building blocks around!) Now I can have dozens of new levels.
I also grabbed a nice can.
Anyhow, the situation i got them in now is so complex that after like 20 minutes of contemplation I still can't figure out how anyone would win! The only thing that could change it is if Kirk slipped up...
Geez it's like chess here 
Anyhow, as I was playing around, I noticed I tended to put the characters in certain situations based on strength and personality.
McCoy is weakest (best to put with the Gorn) and tends to be the victim, or any other way of complete helplessness. However, of course he does his best, and backs off humbley. I never use him as the hero.
Spock tends to either be the hero or helpless. Usuasly both (which tends to leave with the good guys losing.)
And of course, Kirk is either the hero or also helpless. If he's helpless, they all are.
So it got me thinking. McCoy tends to have a martry (spelling?) complex, whereas he'd rather be dead then give up. He still avoids being dead.
Spock would rather be alive then be right. Some would say that is cowardiss, others would say that is pragmatism.
Now, with a martyr complex, one could be way off, and turn out to be a fool. With a pragmatic complex, one who gives up too easily would be an idiot.
So, there's Kirk. He's neither a giver-upper nor a fool.
Then I realized why I don't tend to like Kirk so much in the films, as opposed to the show. Is it me, or is he more like Spock in the films, and would rather surrender then be wrong (note ST3)? And McCoy is left to watch and to be humoruos....
-Sarah of Borg |
_________________
"And books, they offer one hope--that a whole universe might open up from between the covers, and falling into that new universe, one is saved." -Anne Rice (Blackwood Farm)
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SarahofBorg |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 04, 2002 - 06:24 PM
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What, everyone agrees with me? 
-Sarah of Borg |
_________________
"And books, they offer one hope--that a whole universe might open up from between the covers, and falling into that new universe, one is saved." -Anne Rice (Blackwood Farm)
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joains |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 04, 2002 - 06:39 PM
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I don't post opinions on the Kirk/Spock stuff anymore.
I am still looking into the Gilligan's Island Connection mystery...
But you could be right..... |
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...........you can never go home again because you never really left.............
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Crambam |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 04, 2002 - 06:53 PM
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This account has been Permanently Banned
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Where did Kirk give up in ST3?
The man went above and beyond for the mere possibility of bringing his friend's body back to Vulcan. He, and his senior staff, willingly gave up their careers in a sacrifice for Spock. Great careers.
Kirk was told no. He couldn't go. He didn't give up. He went anyway.
With the help of his crew, Kirk managed to steal a starship, sacrificing any future command.
He gets to Genesis in a ship that is not equipped for battle. Who would expect Klingons there? The Klingon takes a cheap shot and cripples Enterprise. But Kirk doesn't give up.
The Klingon murders Kirk's son, and after a brief shock, Kirk recomposes himself and finds a way to turn certain death into a fighting chance to live.
He sacrifices Enterprise for the lives of the people on board her.
But he doesn't give up.
Now he finds him and his crew on a dying planet, his best friend is mindless, his other best friend is out of his mind, and his son is dead.
But Kirk doesn't give up.
He manages to convince the Klingon captain to beam up his crew, and finds himself in a fight to the death, on a planet that is about to explode. Everything is on fire. To top that off, his mindless best friend is there, and he has to protect him. But he doesn't give up.
Then, in the truest of form, Kirk finds himself at an advantage in the fight. The murderer of his son, who had David murdered mere hours earlier, was helpless, hanging from a cliff, and what does Kirk do? He extends his hand to try to pull him up. Kirk is not a murderer. It was only in self defense, when the idiot captain of the Klingon ship STILL tried to kill Kirk that Kirk was forced to kick the guy off the cliff.
And still, Kirk was on the dying planet, with Spock in hand, fire all around him. But he manages to get the communicator and get himself and Spock transported to the Klingon ship just in the nick of time.
Kirk never showed any sign of surrender in this film. If anything, he showed the never ending sacrifice he was willing to go for a friend. Above and beyond. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 04, 2002 - 06:59 PM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 19345
Location: Somewhere right of center.
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| joains wrote: | I don't post opinions on the Kirk/Spock stuff anymore.
I am still looking into the Gilligan's Island Connection mystery...
But you could be right..... |
Serious sci-fi is what ST TOS started out to be.
Gilligan's island is what it bacame on far too many occassions.IMHO.
~Dave |
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SarahofBorg |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 04, 2002 - 07:00 PM
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He surrendered the Enterprise!
I'll probably never really forgive him for that.
I know it was for the crew, but I honestly would think they'd rather be dead then give it up!
The only excuse he could have would have been that saving the Enterprise had little to do with the mission.
But, you can't sacrifice the ship if you still need it! Kirk sacrifices the ship to get the Klingons, but if he got them, there's no way he could leave the Genesis planet and save Spock, which was the mission.
He was just lucky he could get the Klingon ship. Lucky that he learned Klingon very fast. Lucky that he managed to sound like the commander. Lucky that they didn't notice it wasn't the commander while they were beaming them up.
If it weren't for such luck, Kirk would have completely failed, dishonerably.
-Sarah of Borg |
_________________
"And books, they offer one hope--that a whole universe might open up from between the covers, and falling into that new universe, one is saved." -Anne Rice (Blackwood Farm)
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Crambam |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 04, 2002 - 07:15 PM
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It was either do that, or die. Seven people lost for nothing. The ship was designed to be run by 400 people, not 5. If 5 people could run it, then the crew wouldn't be necessary. The ship was jury rigged by Scotty to get to Genesis and back, not go into battle.
Had there been a full crew, Enterprise would have been able to take that Klingon ship easily. Plus, the ship hadn't been fully repaired from the battle with Khan.
Kirk simply didn't have the equipment to defeat the Klingons. So Kirk had 2 options: die now, or sacrifice the ship and take the Klingon crew with it while taking their chances on the planet. Kirk chose to live a little bit longer. Better to be alive in a situation where there is little chance to survive than dead where there is no chance to survive. |
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Yentamyrl |
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Post subject: Kirk like Spock?
Posted: Nov 05, 2002 - 01:09 AM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2002
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| Perhaps, with maturity comes wisdom, the knowledge that allows one to pick the battles to fight and those to let go. To SAVE HIS CREW, HIS FRIENDS, Kirk beams them to the planet surface. His values never changed..the ship was important because of its crew. As Kirk and Spock knew, there are always possibilities. |
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Crambam |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2002 - 02:10 AM
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This account has been Permanently Banned
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Kirk didn't let go though. He never gave up, no matter what the odds. Kirk found himself in a no win scenario and did what he did best. He changed the rules. That's pure Kirk.
You should read the William Shatner Trek books. They really get inside Kirk's head. |
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ason82 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2002 - 03:21 AM
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| SarahofBorg wrote: | He surrendered the Enterprise!
I'll probably never really forgive him for that.
I know it was for the crew, but I honestly would think they'd rather be dead then give it up!
The only excuse he could have would have been that saving the Enterprise had little to do with the mission.
But, you can't sacrifice the ship if you still need it! Kirk sacrifices the ship to get the Klingons, but if he got them, there's no way he could leave the Genesis planet and save Spock, which was the mission.
He was just lucky he could get the Klingon ship. Lucky that he learned Klingon very fast. Lucky that he managed to sound like the commander. Lucky that they didn't notice it wasn't the commander while they were beaming them up.
If it weren't for such luck, Kirk would have completely failed, dishonerably.
-Sarah of Borg |
One thing I think that was emphasized in Mr. Shatner's books is that Kirk finally realizes that it's the people, not the ship, that's important. Sure, the ship went down. And that was sad because the ship was an icon. But keeping the ship would have made for a sadder story altogether. Keep the ship, lose the people, Klingons get military secrets from data banks and the ship itself, they take over the Federation, end of story.
I think you were right about Kirk and McCoy. Especially McCoy. That might be one reason I like him so much. He's weaker than the other two, but he is extremely loyal, never gives up, and is willing to fight to the end, even if his will probably come sooner than the others.
But Spock, I think you had wrong. In "Bread and Circuses," McCoy says something along these lines. And I think he is right because of the look on Spock's face while he's saying it, and the way Spock tries to cover up.
Do you know why you're not afraid to die, Spock?
You're more afraid of living.
Each day you stay alive
is just one more day
you might slip
and let your human half peek out.
That's it, isn't it?
Insecurity.
So I think it's just the opposite. He'd rather die than slip up. He's deathly afraid of making a mistake.
These characteristics and they way they brought the people together is the major reason I like this show.
Ason |
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Two left turns don't make a right...but three do.
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2002 - 07:27 AM
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Location: San Francisco Bay Area
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In many ways, I prefer the movies to the episodes. I like the way they deepened (and yes, darkened) Kirk's character. It added believability and depth and maturity. He doesn't always win. Or he wins in ways that feel like losing.
JK |
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Iddylion |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2002 - 10:33 AM
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To be perfectly honest I think that Kirk is a text book hero really, doing everything you'd expect of the captain, or of prince charming, or the Knight in shining armour. It's appealing, but a little cliched.
McCoy is my favourite character because he's the most human of the three. He wears his heart on his sleeve, but he doesn't have all the answers, and he doesn't pretend to. He's incredibly loyal, and would willingly sacrifice his life for his friends.
As for Spock... we'll I'm really not sure what to say about him other than that he's a Vulcan... :p. Having said that though, I like the character depth, because it seems to me that because he is half vulcan, he works harder at being a typical Vulcan than his countrymen have to, and he's less willing to let himself slip up than his father was. After all, his father believes in love above all else (how else can you explain his choice of consort and his behaviour after spocks "death"?).
Anyway, that's my thoughts on the three.... |
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~Being a football fan in Australia means finding out in October that your boyfriend left you in May~
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maarten |
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Post subject: ahem
Posted: Nov 05, 2002 - 11:39 AM
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I dunno to be honest I find it a bit silly to try and analyse caracters written so many years ago. But it is fun to see how everybody sees them.
Personally I think its all much simpler:
Kirk is the leader, the man who can make decisions. Pretty much the ideal son in law hehe. Also someone with a lot of faith everything will turn out ok.
Spock is the brains the human intellect, trying to analyse and solve with sience. A very "modern" way of thinking, there is no god, science can explain.
McCoy is the human passion, caring about all that lives.
together they make a funny triangle and all 3 melted into 1 would make a normal human being probly 
Well probly no news really, I mean everybody knows all "species" just represent certain human emotions right? Thats why everybody recognises something in Star Trek. And the strongest point is: you can read into that anything you like. |
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SarahofBorg |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2002 - 01:57 PM
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I gave up trying to explain why I really don't like Kirk in the films at all. For that matter, I don't like Spock in the films either. Everyone else is the same or better.
I don't think I could hope to win that argument with you guys
-Sarah of Borg |
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rag451 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2002 - 02:00 PM
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You see, in the movies, Kirk never did have any big romances, which was slightly shocking given the rate at which he had them in the series, but at least there were fantastic fight sequences with Kruge and Soran.  |
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"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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Crambam |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2002 - 02:02 PM
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The Soran fight sequence is going to be better in a few days.
Realize that a lot of the Kirk romance stuff is just myth. There are a few websites that break them down and show that while he was no hermit, he wasn't a womanizer either. |
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rag451 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2002 - 02:05 PM
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| Crambam wrote: | The Soran fight sequence is going to be better in a few days.
Realize that a lot of the Kirk romance stuff is just myth. There are a few websites that break them down and show that while he was no hermit, he wasn't a womanizer either. |
I know, I know. I've seen a few websites, and read a few articles in books that describe that sort of thing. Still, you have to admit that he at least looked at the womanfolk more in the series than he did in the movies. Never once did you notice that almost boyish grin whilst looking at Carol Marcus or Lieutenant Saavik, but he did get a quick kiss from Gillian Taylor in IV... that vindicated me. *g* |
_________________
"Maybe we weren't meant for Paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute, we must march to the sound of drums."
-- Kirk to McCoy
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joains |
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Post subject: Re: ahem
Posted: Nov 05, 2002 - 03:26 PM
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| maarten wrote: | I dunno to be honest I find it a bit silly to try and analyse caracters written so many years ago. But it is fun to see how everybody sees them.
Personally I think its all much simpler:
Kirk is the leader, the man who can make decisions. Pretty much the ideal son in law hehe. Also someone with a lot of faith everything will turn out ok.
Spock is the brains the human intellect, trying to analyse and solve with sience. A very "modern" way of thinking, there is no god, science can explain.
McCoy is the human passion, caring about all that lives.
together they make a funny triangle and all 3 melted into 1 would make a normal human being probly
Well probly no news really, I mean everybody knows all "species" just represent certain human emotions right? Thats why everybody recognises something in Star Trek. And the strongest point is: you can read into that anything you like. |
There are entire fields of study that do just that. Analaze fictional heros and their writers. They make quite a good living at it. Got any idea how many people Shakespeare has housed, clothed, and fed over the years? |
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