 Nerine Shatner Friendly House
This non profit organization is one of the nation's first residential
homes for women recovering from alcohol and substance abuse.
Donate
Here>>>
|
| |
Hollywood
Charity
Horse Show
For the past eleven years, William Shatner has spearheaded the HCHS
which features some of the best western reining riders in the country
while simultaneously raising money for charity.
Donate
Here>>>
|
| |
William
Shatner also
Supports:
 March
of
Dimes Canada
 The Jewish
National Fund
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Seamus |
|
Post subject:
 Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 05:22 PM
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 1410
Location: Most likely not where you are!
Status: Offline
|
|
| greenchick wrote: | Look through the lists of allied troops killed by Americans and then imagine if you could be as coolly rational if any other nation except your own was doing the killing. I go along with "ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" as much as the next man, but to lose young men in this totally senseless way does get emotional and terribly frustrating and you can easily lose sight of the fact that they are human beings just killed by other human beings.
Has anybody any ideas about why this does happen so often? |
Maybe a read through this might clarify something in your mind GC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire
 |
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 05:46 PM
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: 1046
Location: St. Peters, Missouri
|
|
| littlestar wrote: | You know I've often wondered about this myself.....
Since the Revolution, but more well known, since the Civil War...
the USA has had an exorbitant amount of friendly fire cases.
Most people actually heard of it from Vietnam on. I haven't quite worked out if it is the fact that we often rush into action before being thoroughly trained with equipment...or lack of proper surveillance technique.
Maybe a Military Person would discuss...without taking offense.  |
LS, I would question whether it has been more "exorbitant". FF is something that is not exclusive to the US military. My guess would be that it has been more openly reported on than other countries, say Iraq? Iran? Germany? Japan? Boer War Great Britain? Revolutionary War Great Britain? Napoleonic Wars, Great Britain and France?
See my point? |
_________________
DaHjaj 'oH QaQ jaj Daq Hegh.
legh SoH Daq [Hades]
"Today is a good day to die.
See you in Hades."
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 05:52 PM
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: 1046
Location: St. Peters, Missouri
|
|
| DOC wrote: | Congrats, you "broke 1000 posts".
For the record, I believe she envies you on your analogy’s hence, needs to break you somehow. 
As I said from the birth of this site, that Political debating on an Internet forum (not face-to-face) is no different from saying; you suck to the other person (IMO).
~Doc |
Thank You, DOC. It's been a long time coming.  |
_________________
DaHjaj 'oH QaQ jaj Daq Hegh.
legh SoH Daq [Hades]
"Today is a good day to die.
See you in Hades."
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 09:10 PM
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 8400
|
|
# 1991 - American A-10 during Operation Desert Storm attacks British armoured personnel carriers killing nine British soldiers (the same number as were killed by enemy fire in the whole war).
# 1992 - USS Saratoga during a no-notice exercise that included a simulated RIM-7 launch; confusion ensued, and a sailor launched into the bridge of the Turkish destroyer Muavenet killing 5.
# 1994 - In the Black Hawk Incident, two U.S. Air Force F-15E Strike Eagles involved with Operation Provide Comfort shot down two U.S. Army UH-60 Black Hawks over northern Iraq, killing 29 military and civilian personnel.
# 2001 - American F/A-18 dropped 3 Mk-82 bombs on a friendly observation post killing six and wounding 11 at Al Udairi Range, Kuwait.
# 2002 - American F-16 pilot dropped a 500 lb (228 kg) bomb on Canadian soldiers performing a live-fire exercise, killing four and injuring another 8 in the Tarnak Farm incident.
# 2003
* American aircraft attacked a friendly Kurdish & U.S. Special Forces convoy, killing 15. BBC translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed was killed and BBC reporter Tom Giles and World Affairs Editor John Simpson were injured. The incident was filmed. [11]
* American Patriot missile shot down in error F/A-18C Block 46 Hornet 164974 of VFA-195 50 mi from Karbala, Iraq, killing the pilot.
* American Patriot missile shot down a British Panavia Tornado GR.4A ZG710 'D' of 13 Squadron killing the pilot and navigator, Flight Lieutenant David Rhys Williams and Flight Lieutenant Kevin Barry Main, both from 9 Squadron
* British Royal Marine Christopher Maddison killed when his river patrol boat was hit by missiles after being wrongly identified as an enemy vessel approaching a Royal Engineers checkpoint on the Al-Faw Peninsula, Iraq.[6]
* British Challenger 2 tank came under fire from another British tank in a nighttime firefight, blowing off the turret and killing two crew members, Corporal Stephen John Allbutt and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke [12]
* 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident - March 28, 2003 when a pair of American A-10s from the 190th Fighter Squadron attack four British armoured reconnaissance vehicles of the Blues and Royals, killing Lance-Corporal of Horse Matty Hull, during the invasion of Iraq.
# 2004 - Pat Tillman, famous American football player and friendly fire victim in Afghanistan.
# 2005
* American soldier Mario Lozano is suspected of killing Italian intelligence officer Nicola Calipari and wounding Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena in Baghdad. Sgrena had been kidnapped and subsequently rescued by Calipari; however, it is claimed that the car they were escaping in failed to stop at an American checkpoint, and U.S. soldiers opened fire.
* American troops opened fire on a Bulgarian convoy. Junior Sergeant Gardi Gardev was killed.
# 2006
* During Operation Medusa, two U.S. A-10 Thunderbolt IIs strafed their own NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham, and seriously wounding five others when soldiers were trying to seize a Taliban stronghold along the Arghandab River. Graham was a former Canadian Olympic athlete who competed on the Canadian 4x400 Men's Relay Team at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics.
* A U.S. machine gunner accidentally shot (from behind) and killed Canadian Pvt. Robert Costall and Vermont National Guard Sgt. John Thomas near Kandahar, in Afghanistan.
# 2007
* American airstrike killed eight Kurdish Iraqi soldiers. [13]
* U.S. forces kill seven Afghan police officers.[14]
* One of a pair USAF F-15s called in to support British ground forces in Afganistan dropped a bomb on those forces, killing three soldiers of the 1st Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment, and injuring two others.[7]
Since 1991, see a pattern? See any other nation's forces killing any coalition forces? No. Must be the "ebb and flow of battle" or "the fog of war". Strange how it only seems to affect US forces. |
_________________
Yes we can!
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 09:13 PM
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 8400
|
|
| DD_Watson_50 wrote: | | greenchick wrote: | I can honestly say I don't envy his "analogy's"! The telling phrase in his analogy to me was " Unless you've discussed your tactics thoroughly with your teammates" which I hope and pray is the case with the USAF!
Again, before you get all high and mighty about how I expressed myself, imagine if one of your allies was killing your soldiers at the same rate, then imagine how delicately you would phrase your protestations. Not very, I think would be the answer!
There are tables to show how many Coalition soldiers have been killed in the two Iraq Wars by US personnel and it doesn't make pretty reading. Not politically presented, just statements of fact. |
There's no "high and mighty" about it. I'm just counter-pointing your expressions. As I said before, ANY FF incident is deeply regrettable, regardless of whether committed by RAF vs US or USAF vs a Royal Regiment. Also, as stated by Seamus, when you have the majority of troops in the AO (area of operation) (95%?), and you're not on the same frequency of communications, the possibility of FF increases exponentially.
My suggestion would be to, put on a mask, strap on a 12-pod belt, grab an airgun and step onto a field. If ever you want to experience an adrenaline rush and tunnel-vision, that's the way to go. My son and I played in a 3-man tournament 3 years ago and 2 matches BEFORE ours my heart-rate was at 130 bpm. I was the oldest player in the tourney at 50 and it was 95* F. We finished first with a 9-1 record and one of our games took all of 47 seconds, from "GO, GO, GO" to hanging the flag.
Plainly stated, FF is a fact of war. I have no doubt this incident will be thoroughly investigated and measures reinforced on prevention. |
My point is that it is NEVER RAF on US. Get your head round that. |
_________________
Yes we can!
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Seamus |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 09:51 PM
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 1410
Location: Most likely not where you are!
Status: Offline
|
|
| greenchick wrote: | # 1991 - American A-10 during Operation Desert Storm attacks British armoured personnel carriers killing nine British soldiers (the same number as were killed by enemy fire in the whole war).
# 1992 - USS Saratoga during a no-notice exercise that included a simulated RIM-7 launch; confusion ensued, and a sailor launched into the bridge of the Turkish destroyer Muavenet killing 5.
# 1994 - In the Black Hawk Incident, two U.S. Air Force F-15E Strike Eagles involved with Operation Provide Comfort shot down two U.S. Army UH-60 Black Hawks over northern Iraq, killing 29 military and civilian personnel.
# 2001 - American F/A-18 dropped 3 Mk-82 bombs on a friendly observation post killing six and wounding 11 at Al Udairi Range, Kuwait.
# 2002 - American F-16 pilot dropped a 500 lb (228 kg) bomb on Canadian soldiers performing a live-fire exercise, killing four and injuring another 8 in the Tarnak Farm incident.
# 2003
* American aircraft attacked a friendly Kurdish & U.S. Special Forces convoy, killing 15. BBC translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed was killed and BBC reporter Tom Giles and World Affairs Editor John Simpson were injured. The incident was filmed. [11]
* American Patriot missile shot down in error F/A-18C Block 46 Hornet 164974 of VFA-195 50 mi from Karbala, Iraq, killing the pilot.
* American Patriot missile shot down a British Panavia Tornado GR.4A ZG710 'D' of 13 Squadron killing the pilot and navigator, Flight Lieutenant David Rhys Williams and Flight Lieutenant Kevin Barry Main, both from 9 Squadron
* British Royal Marine Christopher Maddison killed when his river patrol boat was hit by missiles after being wrongly identified as an enemy vessel approaching a Royal Engineers checkpoint on the Al-Faw Peninsula, Iraq.[6]
* British Challenger 2 tank came under fire from another British tank in a nighttime firefight, blowing off the turret and killing two crew members, Corporal Stephen John Allbutt and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke [12]
* 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident - March 28, 2003 when a pair of American A-10s from the 190th Fighter Squadron attack four British armoured reconnaissance vehicles of the Blues and Royals, killing Lance-Corporal of Horse Matty Hull, during the invasion of Iraq.
# 2004 - Pat Tillman, famous American football player and friendly fire victim in Afghanistan.
# 2005
* American soldier Mario Lozano is suspected of killing Italian intelligence officer Nicola Calipari and wounding Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena in Baghdad. Sgrena had been kidnapped and subsequently rescued by Calipari; however, it is claimed that the car they were escaping in failed to stop at an American checkpoint, and U.S. soldiers opened fire.
* American troops opened fire on a Bulgarian convoy. Junior Sergeant Gardi Gardev was killed.
# 2006
* During Operation Medusa, two U.S. A-10 Thunderbolt IIs strafed their own NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham, and seriously wounding five others when soldiers were trying to seize a Taliban stronghold along the Arghandab River. Graham was a former Canadian Olympic athlete who competed on the Canadian 4x400 Men's Relay Team at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics.
* A U.S. machine gunner accidentally shot (from behind) and killed Canadian Pvt. Robert Costall and Vermont National Guard Sgt. John Thomas near Kandahar, in Afghanistan.
# 2007
* American airstrike killed eight Kurdish Iraqi soldiers. [13]
* U.S. forces kill seven Afghan police officers.[14]
* One of a pair USAF F-15s called in to support British ground forces in Afganistan dropped a bomb on those forces, killing three soldiers of the 1st Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment, and injuring two others.[7]
Since 1991, see a pattern? See any other nation's forces killing any coalition forces? No. Must be the "ebb and flow of battle" or "the fog of war". Strange how it only seems to affect US forces. |
I don't know about that... You've made the point that the British have not been reported to have injured US personnel but the British have had incidents of friendly fire against themselves. I've highlighted two British instances of FF right in the passage that you cut and pasted from the Wikipedia article. It's possible for any soldier to be confused and in the heat of the moment fire on friendlies. Of course there's going to be more instances of FF on the US side, we've got the larger military force out there with more soldiers out there with the opportunity to make mistakes that could be made by any human. It's like using the huge paint brush to add details to a painting when all you need is a small detail brush. Using the big brush is obviously easier to get paint up there but with that clumsy a brush it is easier to make a glaring mistake.
Whether they be incidents by US/british/other military groups there are still a few factors that tend to be prevalent in a lot of the FF reports:
Factor one was the inability to maintain situational awareness (accurate knowledge of one's own location, as well as the locations of friendly, enemy, neutrals, and noncombatants)
Factor two was the lack of positive target identification (accurate,
dependable, through-sight discrimination between friend or foe).
perhaps instead of jabbing fingers at solely American forces and implying a trigger happy nature with the US military, lets take a look at the root problem here, battlefield specific situational awareness and faster, more accurate target identification.
In other words it is still possible to use the huge paint brush to get the desired effect... we just have to use more attention to detail.
 |
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 09:59 PM
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: 1046
Location: St. Peters, Missouri
|
|
| greenchick wrote: | | DD_Watson_50 wrote: | | greenchick wrote: | I can honestly say I don't envy his "analogy's"! The telling phrase in his analogy to me was " Unless you've discussed your tactics thoroughly with your teammates" which I hope and pray is the case with the USAF!
Again, before you get all high and mighty about how I expressed myself, imagine if one of your allies was killing your soldiers at the same rate, then imagine how delicately you would phrase your protestations. Not very, I think would be the answer!
There are tables to show how many Coalition soldiers have been killed in the two Iraq Wars by US personnel and it doesn't make pretty reading. Not politically presented, just statements of fact. |
There's no "high and mighty" about it. I'm just counter-pointing your expressions. As I said before, ANY FF incident is deeply regrettable, regardless of whether committed by RAF vs US or USAF vs a Royal Regiment. Also, as stated by Seamus, when you have the majority of troops in the AO (area of operation) (95%?), and you're not on the same frequency of communications, the possibility of FF increases exponentially.
My suggestion would be to, put on a mask, strap on a 12-pod belt, grab an airgun and step onto a field. If ever you want to experience an adrenaline rush and tunnel-vision, that's the way to go. My son and I played in a 3-man tournament 3 years ago and 2 matches BEFORE ours my heart-rate was at 130 bpm. I was the oldest player in the tourney at 50 and it was 95* F. We finished first with a 9-1 record and one of our games took all of 47 seconds, from "GO, GO, GO" to hanging the flag.
Plainly stated, FF is a fact of war. I have no doubt this incident will be thoroughly investigated and measures reinforced on prevention. |
My point is that it is NEVER RAF on US. Get your head round that. |
This from the Guardian Unlimited website:
""Friendly fire incidents are not new. According to Geoffrey Regan, the British author of Backfire, which chronicles the history of friendly fire, it was first recorded as long ago as the Peloponnesian war in the fourth century BC.
Estimates of friendly fire losses are hard to assess. In both world wars countless incidents were recorded of soldiers firing on their comrades or other allies in the confusion of battle.
One study surmises that around 75,000 French troops in the second world war were killed or seriously injured in this way. Just over 15% of all US deaths in the war were thought to have come about through friendly fire, with a similar figure for Vietnam.
Since the first Gulf war in 1991, deaths through what the US and British militaries now call "blue on blue" incidents have been far more widely reported.
In the Gulf war, nine out of the 47 British combat deaths were due to friendly fire, with the corresponding figure for US forces being 35 out of 148 deaths.
The proportion for UK troops in the current Iraq conflict is lower, although the true story of their deaths is sometimes not known until an inquest is held.
The most high-profile friendly fire incident of recent years was the killing of Lance Corporal Matty Hull by a US A10 air attack in the first days of the 2003 Iraq invasion.
Hull was among a convoy of British troops in southern Iraq which was mistaken for enemy troops, despite displaying orange signals to identify themselves. A video of the incident as seen from the cockpit of one of the attacking aircraft was obtained by the Sun newspaper.
The coroner at the inquest, which took place earlier this year, found that the killing amounted to "a criminal act" that was tantamount to manslaughter.
Five days before Hull died, the pilot and navigator of a British Tornado GR4 were killed when their plane was shot down close to the Kuwaiti border by an American Patriot missile.
The next day, a British tank commander, Sergeant Steve Roberts, was shot dead by a colleague trying to protect him as he struggled with an Iraqi protester near Basra. A day later, two crew members in a British Challenger 2 died near Basra when they were mistakenly fired on by comrades in another tank.
Then, five days afterwards, the Royal Marine commando Christopher Maddison was killed when his river launch was hit by gunfire south of Basra. At an inquest in November last year, the coroner criticised communication failures that led to him being shot at by Royal Engineers who thought his boat was an enemy craft.
In May this year a Commons report found that British troops did not have viable combat identification kits to help them avoid the risk of friendly fire. The latest killings come despite attempts by Nato forces in Afghanistan to reduce the risk of friendly fire and civilian casualties.""
Why weren't these others splashed all over the media? Oh, that's right......... It didn't involve the US Military.
Yes, I, we, you hate to hear of ANY FF. I'll say it again: It IS, HAS BEEN and ALWAYS will be totally unavoidable. Can YOU get your head around that? |
_________________
DaHjaj 'oH QaQ jaj Daq Hegh.
legh SoH Daq [Hades]
"Today is a good day to die.
See you in Hades."
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 10:08 PM
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 8400
|
|
Personally, this wouldn't be an issue if just one person, with the honourable exception of littlestar, just said, "this is dreadful, we're so sorry, how can we stop it happening." If it were the RAF with this appalling record, I would be embarrassed, ashamed and hoping for forgiveness. The people here defending the USAF record seem to be displaying the same attitudes that cause these incidents to keep recurring.
Anyway, as someone just said, it is a "dialogue des sourds" (a dialogue of the deaf) so I'm going to really try not to participate in it any more!
BTW the list ommitted the case of Trooper Matty Hull when the Pentagon refused to release details of how it happened and it had to be revealed in a coroner's court.... |
_________________
Yes we can!
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 10:24 PM
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: 1046
Location: St. Peters, Missouri
|
|
| greenchick wrote: | Personally, this wouldn't be an issue if just one person, with the honourable exception of littlestar, just said, "this is dreadful, we're so sorry, how can we stop it happening." If it were the RAF with this appalling record, I would be embarrassed, ashamed and hoping for forgiveness. The people here defending the USAF record seem to be displaying the same attitudes that cause these incidents to keep recurring.
Anyway, as someone just said, it is a "dialogue des sourds" (a dialogue of the deaf) so I'm going to really try not to participate in it any more!
BTW the list ommitted the case of Trooper Matty Hull when the Pentagon refused to release details of how it happened and it had to be revealed in a coroner's court.... |
Then you really haven't been reading what I've said. No, I haven't used the word "dreadful", and as far as defending "the USAF record", I haven't done that either. GC, somehow you seem to think that it can be totally eliminated. Well, deary......... It can't. These FF incidents are like the sunrise and sunset. They're gonna happen when you have men at war.
One other little tidbit:
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/euro ... index.html |
_________________
DaHjaj 'oH QaQ jaj Daq Hegh.
legh SoH Daq [Hades]
"Today is a good day to die.
See you in Hades."
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 11:28 PM
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 5199
Location: standing here shaking my head in disbelief....
|
|
| greenchick wrote: | Personally, this wouldn't be an issue if just one person, with the honourable exception of littlestar, just said, "this is dreadful, we're so sorry, how can we stop it happening." If it were the RAF with this appalling record, I would be embarrassed, ashamed and hoping for forgiveness. The people here defending the USAF record seem to be displaying the same attitudes that cause these incidents to keep recurring.
Anyway, as someone just said, it is a "dialogue des sourds" (a dialogue of the deaf) so I'm going to really try not to participate in it any more!
BTW the list ommitted the case of Trooper Matty Hull when the Pentagon refused to release details of how it happened and it had to be revealed in a coroner's court.... |
Pretty sure I said something......
| Cat wrote: | | It's a terrible thing, and I assume an accident. I do agree that professionals need to investigate what happened, and do everything possible to keep it from happening again. |
|
_________________
When you try to make others look small, you only show how truly tiny your own spirit is.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Aug 28, 2007 - 01:08 AM
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: 1046
Location: St. Peters, Missouri
|
|
With all apologies to Paul and Morgram.....
I tried to make my points in a conciliatory tone hoping against all hope that this thread wouldn't turn into what it eventually became.
Somehow, one particular person manages to turn it into an anti-US whatever. The US, USAF, USMC, Bush is the bad-guys oratory. Really, I expected no less, but there was always that hope.
I will state one last time. FF incidents are a fact of war, no matter how careful ANYONE is. Do I hate for them to happen? YES, as much as anyone else. Will I be able to stop them? NO, and neither I nor GC nor Seamus or even The Almighty Paul can do anything about it. All any of us can do is simply deal with that fact.
Sorry, Paul.........
DW
Save your breath GC, your preaching at an empty pew now. |
_________________
DaHjaj 'oH QaQ jaj Daq Hegh.
legh SoH Daq [Hades]
"Today is a good day to die.
See you in Hades."
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Seamus |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Aug 28, 2007 - 05:47 AM
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 1410
Location: Most likely not where you are!
Status: Offline
|
|
| greenchick wrote: | | Personally, this wouldn't be an issue if just one person, with the honourable exception of littlestar, just said, "this is dreadful, we're so sorry, how can we stop it happening." If it were the RAF with this appalling record, I would be embarrassed, ashamed and hoping for forgiveness. |
I don't think any of us are not upset about all of the friendly fire incidents that have happened over the years whether US based or not. I feel horrible about every one of those incidents whether it be our troops firing on our own or our allies. Friendly fire incidents are horrible but as DD_Watson_ 50 said it is an eventuality in war. There are ways to minimize it but when there are so many troops involved in a campaign the chances for friendly fire is exponentially increased. The only way to truly eliminate human military deaths by friendly fire in war or otherwise, would be to create a totally automaton military.
| greenchick wrote: | | The people here defending the USAF record seem to be displaying the same attitudes that cause these incidents to keep recurring. |
DD_Watson_50 and I were not so much as defending the USAF record so much as saying that FF is a fact of war and it can and does happen to any country who goes to war. No country that has ever gone to large scale war has ever had a spotless record when it comes to FF. Is it horrible and should try to be avoided? Anyone would be daft to say it wasn't! Are we saddened, embarrassed, and ashamed when it happens? If we aren't then we should re-evaluate our humanity. Can we and should we implement changes to training, procedures, and equipment that would help to decrease this problem? Yes of course. We should make every effort to minimize this problem. Do I feel that it can be totally eliminated? doubtful... as long as we have a military that is made up of humans and not automatons there will always be human errors that could lead to FF incidents.
| greenchick wrote: |
Anyway, as someone just said, it is a "dialogue des sourds" (a dialogue of the deaf) so I'm going to really try not to participate in it any more!
|
Oh do participate... it is an interesting and spirited deliberation we were having and I appreciate your point of view even if I perhaps do not fully share it.
|
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
morgram |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Aug 28, 2007 - 05:59 AM
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 19, 2005
Posts: 3322
Status: Offline
|
|
| Seamus wrote: | | greenchick wrote: | # 1991 - American A-10 during Operation Desert Storm attacks British armoured personnel carriers killing nine British soldiers (the same number as were killed by enemy fire in the whole war).
# 1992 - USS Saratoga during a no-notice exercise that included a simulated RIM-7 launch; confusion ensued, and a sailor launched into the bridge of the Turkish destroyer Muavenet killing 5.
# 1994 - In the Black Hawk Incident, two U.S. Air Force F-15E Strike Eagles involved with Operation Provide Comfort shot down two U.S. Army UH-60 Black Hawks over northern Iraq, killing 29 military and civilian personnel.
# 2001 - American F/A-18 dropped 3 Mk-82 bombs on a friendly observation post killing six and wounding 11 at Al Udairi Range, Kuwait.
# 2002 - American F-16 pilot dropped a 500 lb (228 kg) bomb on Canadian soldiers performing a live-fire exercise, killing four and injuring another 8 in the Tarnak Farm incident.
# 2003
* American aircraft attacked a friendly Kurdish & U.S. Special Forces convoy, killing 15. BBC translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed was killed and BBC reporter Tom Giles and World Affairs Editor John Simpson were injured. The incident was filmed. [11]
* American Patriot missile shot down in error F/A-18C Block 46 Hornet 164974 of VFA-195 50 mi from Karbala, Iraq, killing the pilot.
* American Patriot missile shot down a British Panavia Tornado GR.4A ZG710 'D' of 13 Squadron killing the pilot and navigator, Flight Lieutenant David Rhys Williams and Flight Lieutenant Kevin Barry Main, both from 9 Squadron
* British Royal Marine Christopher Maddison killed when his river patrol boat was hit by missiles after being wrongly identified as an enemy vessel approaching a Royal Engineers checkpoint on the Al-Faw Peninsula, Iraq.[6]
* British Challenger 2 tank came under fire from another British tank in a nighttime firefight, blowing off the turret and killing two crew members, Corporal Stephen John Allbutt and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke [12]
* 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident - March 28, 2003 when a pair of American A-10s from the 190th Fighter Squadron attack four British armoured reconnaissance vehicles of the Blues and Royals, killing Lance-Corporal of Horse Matty Hull, during the invasion of Iraq.
# 2004 - Pat Tillman, famous American football player and friendly fire victim in Afghanistan.
# 2005
* American soldier Mario Lozano is suspected of killing Italian intelligence officer Nicola Calipari and wounding Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena in Baghdad. Sgrena had been kidnapped and subsequently rescued by Calipari; however, it is claimed that the car they were escaping in failed to stop at an American checkpoint, and U.S. soldiers opened fire.
* American troops opened fire on a Bulgarian convoy. Junior Sergeant Gardi Gardev was killed.
# 2006
* During Operation Medusa, two U.S. A-10 Thunderbolt IIs strafed their own NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham, and seriously wounding five others when soldiers were trying to seize a Taliban stronghold along the Arghandab River. Graham was a former Canadian Olympic athlete who competed on the Canadian 4x400 Men's Relay Team at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics.
* A U.S. machine gunner accidentally shot (from behind) and killed Canadian Pvt. Robert Costall and Vermont National Guard Sgt. John Thomas near Kandahar, in Afghanistan.
# 2007
* American airstrike killed eight Kurdish Iraqi soldiers. [13]
* U.S. forces kill seven Afghan police officers.[14]
* One of a pair USAF F-15s called in to support British ground forces in Afganistan dropped a bomb on those forces, killing three soldiers of the 1st Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment, and injuring two others.[7]
Since 1991, see a pattern? See any other nation's forces killing any coalition forces? No. Must be the "ebb and flow of battle" or "the fog of war". Strange how it only seems to affect US forces. |
I don't know about that... You've made the point that the British have not been reported to have injured US personnel but the British have had incidents of friendly fire against themselves. I've highlighted two British instances of FF right in the passage that you cut and pasted from the Wikipedia article. It's possible for any soldier to be confused and in the heat of the moment fire on friendlies. Of course there's going to be more instances of FF on the US side, we've got the larger military force out there with more soldiers out there with the opportunity to make mistakes that could be made by any human. It's like using the huge paint brush to add details to a painting when all you need is a small detail brush. Using the big brush is obviously easier to get paint up there but with that clumsy a brush it is easier to make a glaring mistake.
Whether they be incidents by US/british/other military groups there are still a few factors that tend to be prevalent in a lot of the FF reports:
Factor one was the inability to maintain situational awareness (accurate knowledge of one's own location, as well as the locations of friendly, enemy, neutrals, and noncombatants)
Factor two was the lack of positive target identification (accurate,
dependable, through-sight discrimination between friend or foe).
perhaps instead of jabbing fingers at solely American forces and implying a trigger happy nature with the US military, lets take a look at the root problem here, battlefield specific situational awareness and faster, more accurate target identification.
In other words it is still possible to use the huge paint brush to get the desired effect... we just have to use more attention to detail.
|
According to greenchick the 2 FF incidents highlighted in red never happened but they did thus proving that one should really glance a bit at what they copy & paste also please note everyone that my initial message that started this thread was only something I copied and pasted WITHOUT any commentary from me other than the thread title. |
_________________
"Leave the starship commanding to Bill because he already knows how to do it better than anybody else!" -morgram
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
