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Post subject:
 Posted: Aug 26, 2007 - 03:56 PM
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Member
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 5199
Location: standing here shaking my head in disbelief....
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| greenchick wrote: | Isn't there a difference between current affairs and politics? If someone had used this event to attack the reasons for us being there in the first place, then maybe.
Besides which, it should be morgram you shuold be berating, he started this thread. |
I really don't see where I mentioned anyone's name. 
And if immigration into Europe is political, then so is this, and I think you know that. None of us have the right to pick and choose which political topics we think should be allowed. It's not right to use Paul's decisions only to censor views we don't like.
I am truly saddened and surprised by your comment to me on the other thread. You use the terms "we" and "your". When did people stop being people, and start being "we" and "your"? Why would I be any less upset by the loss of British troops then I would American? I still think of human beings as being human beings, and I don't like to divide them up dependant on what country they are from. I find them all equally valuable. I truly don't understand how you think.  |
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When you try to make others look small, you only show how truly tiny your own spirit is.
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 26, 2007 - 05:56 PM
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Look through the lists of allied troops killed by Americans and then imagine if you could be as coolly rational if any other nation except your own was doing the killing. I go along with "ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" as much as the next man, but to lose young men in this totally senseless way does get emotional and terribly frustrating and you can easily lose sight of the fact that they are human beings just killed by other human beings.
Has anybody any ideas about why this does happen so often? |
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Yes we can!
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 26, 2007 - 07:20 PM
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Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
Posts: 9205
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| greenchick wrote: | Look through the lists of allied troops killed by Americans and then imagine if you could be as coolly rational if any other nation except your own was doing the killing. I go along with "ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" as much as the next man, but to lose young men in this totally senseless way does get emotional and terribly frustrating and you can easily lose sight of the fact that they are human beings just killed by other human beings.
Has anybody any ideas about why this does happen so often? |
Put yourself in their place then maybe you'll get the answer. |
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Knowledge is power....
but if used unwisely,
it will destroy you.
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 26, 2007 - 07:37 PM
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Member
Joined: Feb 02, 2003
Posts: 3983
Location: Walthamstow
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| Mirizor wrote: | | greenchick wrote: | Look through the lists of allied troops killed by Americans and then imagine if you could be as coolly rational if any other nation except your own was doing the killing. I go along with "ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" as much as the next man, but to lose young men in this totally senseless way does get emotional and terribly frustrating and you can easily lose sight of the fact that they are human beings just killed by other human beings.
Has anybody any ideas about why this does happen so often? |
Put yourself in their place then maybe you'll get the answer. |
If only it were that easy. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 26, 2007 - 07:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 12, 2004
Posts: 9205
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| BWW wrote: | | Mirizor wrote: | | greenchick wrote: | Look through the lists of allied troops killed by Americans and then imagine if you could be as coolly rational if any other nation except your own was doing the killing. I go along with "ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" as much as the next man, but to lose young men in this totally senseless way does get emotional and terribly frustrating and you can easily lose sight of the fact that they are human beings just killed by other human beings.
Has anybody any ideas about why this does happen so often? |
Put yourself in their place then maybe you'll get the answer. |
If only it were that easy. |
Like I said, we don't know the answers because we aren't there to witness these incidents. |
_________________
Knowledge is power....
but if used unwisely,
it will destroy you.
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 03:07 AM
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Member
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 5199
Location: standing here shaking my head in disbelief....
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| greenchick wrote: | Look through the lists of allied troops killed by Americans and then imagine if you could be as coolly rational if any other nation except your own was doing the killing. I go along with "ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" as much as the next man, but to lose young men in this totally senseless way does get emotional and terribly frustrating and you can easily lose sight of the fact that they are human beings just killed by other human beings.
Has anybody any ideas about why this does happen so often? |
You mean like as if something like planes were deliberately flown into office buildings murdering thousands of innocent people? Sadly, I can easily imagine that. It breaks my heart, and it makes me angry at the people who did it and were involved. Not an entire nation or group of people. I don't think that way.
None of the people involved in the FF issue post on this forum. No one else can possibly explain what happened, and guesses are just foolish. It's a terrible thing, and I assume an accident. I do agree that professionals need to investigate what happened, and do everything possible to keep it from happening again. But, I'm sick of the "You Americans" thing. |
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When you try to make others look small, you only show how truly tiny your own spirit is.
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 12:27 PM
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Joined: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 8400
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| But I haven't gone down the "you Americans" path, apart from the Americans that keep making these tragic mistakes. Obviously it was an accident and I should imagine the pilots involved are feeling dreadful. At the same time, it is true that 99% of friendly fire incidents are US pilots or soldiers killing soldiers or airmen of other nations and you can't expect those other nations not to get extremely p1ssed off about it. If the pilots killing our soldiers were French, I would be just as upset with the French authorities and would be questioning why it kept happening and what could be done to stop it. |
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Yes we can!
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 01:11 PM
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Joined: Mar 10, 2004
Posts: 907
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If you're killed unwittingly by a soldier whom you don't see as being evil, someone whose spirit is innocent -- any child -- is that "friendly fire"?
Provocative War Child campaign brings home plight of child soldiers
By Kristine Owram
Sat Aug 25, 2:55 PM
TORONTO (CP) -- A Canadian charity is hoping to bring home the plight of war-affected children with a provocative new campaign that asks Canadians to picture their own children shooting AK-47s and walking across minefields.
The campaign, launched this week by War Child Canada, features a YouTube video that appears to be an advertisement for a children's adventure camp called Camp Okutta.
The video begins with a smiling teenaged camp counsellor named Ryan inviting viewers to join him on a tour of the camp. While a guitar strums in the background, Ryan teaches campers how to throw grenades, shoot AK-47s and walk gingerly across a minefield.
At the end, the video directs viewers to the camp's website, which goes into more detail about what campers will experience. Children who are homesick or afraid are fed amphetamines and a "rudimentary mixture of cocaine and gunpowder." On good days, they eat plain rice or scraps of food left behind by the camp's leaders.
The campaign is meant to draw attention to the estimated 250,000 child soldiers worldwide, War Child Canada founder Samantha Nutt said.
"What we were trying to do was to really bring the issue home to North Americans in a new and creative way that would ask the question, 'If this was a Canadian context and these were Canadian kids, what would our reaction be?"' she said.
"We accept it as part of life in other parts of the world, and yet it is totally abhorrent and totally unacceptable."
Nutt described the YouTube video and Camp Okutta website as "100 per cent based in reality," from the images of children detonating mines, to the use of AK-47s, which are considered the weapon of choice for child soldiers because "they're lightweight and so easy to use," she said.
Nutt said she doesn't expect many people will believe the YouTube video is real, but she hopes it will at least intrigue people enough to do more research on child soldiers.
"We want them to be intrigued enough, whether it's because they believe it's real, or because they find it interesting and they want to learn more," she said.
Just one day after the campaign was launched, Nutt said she had already received "overwhelmingly positive" feedback.
"People are calling it extremely creative. Some people are calling it courageous," she said.
"There have been a couple of people who made the mistake of thinking it was real, but in actual fact we are grateful for that, because we want people to be outraged that this is happening in the world."
Nutt said she has the child actors to thank for making the video so realistic.
"They were just really driven by the cause and by the issue and the fact that there are kids all around the world for whom this is real life," she said.
One of the actors in the YouTube video, 13-year-old Tyler Pacheco, said learning about child soldiers during the filming made him feel "pretty sad."
"It was good because I did it for a good cause," he said. "But it made me realize that there's other kids in the world that go through this every day, even if they don't want to."
Nutt said a trauma councillor was on hand during filming in case the actors needed someone to talk to.
While a campaign that requires a trauma councillor may seem over the top, Nutt said War Child Canada has taken far greater risks to get their message across. During the filming of a documentary in the Congo with Canadian punk band Sum 41, for example, participants were nearly killed in a border skirmish, she said.
"Obviously there will be some people who think it is too much, and I guess to those people I would turn around and say, 'What's too much? Is this campaign too much, or is the fact that this is happening in the world too much?"' Nutt said.
"What we're here to do is remind people that kids are kids, and they're all deserving of our attention and support no matter where they were born in the world."
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xtc1MG9bDrg
http://campokutta.com/
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 04:21 PM
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Member
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: 1046
Location: St. Peters, Missouri
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| greenchick wrote: | | DD_Watson_50 wrote: | GC, your use of Fox News as an example is weak, at best. It is essentially the same story as that shown on MSNBC. So, stop trying to play the conservative vs. liberal media sources card.
While ANY friendly-fire accident is deeply regrettable, we don't know the circumstances at this point, so to even speculate as to the reason is disingenuous. There is also something called "the ebb and flow of a battlefield". |
I don't see your point. you mean if one media outlet carries it then the others don't bother?
I would accept it as the "ebb and flow of a battlefield" if it wasn't such a one-way traffic. See if you could accept it so philosophically if we killed your people. In four years of war, it hasn't happened yet, whereas you've killed 12 of ours.
Anyway, it saddens and infuriates me, so I'm not going to discuss it. |
First, you could have picked ANY news organization as the source for your comment because they ALL had it, and yet you chose Fox News, as it appeared, to make a derisive point.
Second, I repeat, we DON'T know the circumstances and the battlefield conditions at the time. It may have been a stagnant field or house-to-house. WE DON'T KNOW!
Third.... No "You Americans"? What about your statement of "you've killed 12 of ours"? Sounds pretty all-encompassing to me.
Allow me to throw out this example:
Have any of you ever been on a paintball field? I know Batman, Tina Vampyregurl and I have been. Whether it's on a bunker field, the woods or in a village, things happen so fast all you do is react. Unless you've discussed your tactics thoroughly with your teammates and know when someone is going to be ahead of you or when they're going to make a break, all you're focused on is your front and ANY movement and pumping as many paintballs at that movement as possible.
Before you get your knickers in a twist, I know this is NOT a prime example, but it's the closest any of us will ever experience.
EDIT: I completely forgot that our illustrious host, Mr. Shatner, also knows that of which I speak concerning a paintball field. |
_________________
DaHjaj 'oH QaQ jaj Daq Hegh.
legh SoH Daq [Hades]
"Today is a good day to die.
See you in Hades."
Last edited by DD_Watson_50 on Aug 27, 2007 - 05:29 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 04:31 PM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 9000
Location: "It isn't that they can't see the solution. It is that they can't see the problem."~ G.K.C
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| DD_Watson_50 wrote: | | greenchick wrote: | | DD_Watson_50 wrote: | GC, your use of Fox News as an example is weak, at best. It is essentially the same story as that shown on MSNBC. So, stop trying to play the conservative vs. liberal media sources card.
While ANY friendly-fire accident is deeply regrettable, we don't know the circumstances at this point, so to even speculate as to the reason is disingenuous. There is also something called "the ebb and flow of a battlefield". |
I don't see your point. you mean if one media outlet carries it then the others don't bother?
I would accept it as the "ebb and flow of a battlefield" if it wasn't such a one-way traffic. See if you could accept it so philosophically if we killed your people. In four years of war, it hasn't happened yet, whereas you've killed 12 of ours.
Anyway, it saddens and infuriates me, so I'm not going to discuss it. |
First, you could have picked ANY news organization as the source for your comment because they ALL had it, and yet you chose Fox News, as it appeared, to make a derisive point.
Second, I repeat, we DON'T know the circumstances and the battlefield conditions at the time. It may have been a stagnant field or house-to-house. WE DON'T KNOW!
Third.... No "You Americans"? What about your statement of "you've killed 12 of ours"? Sounds pretty all-encompassing to me.
Allow me to throw out this example:
Have any of you ever been on a paintball field? I know Batman, Tina Vampyregurl and I have been. Whether it's on a bunker field, the woods or in a village, things happen so fast all you do is react. Unless you've discussed your tactics thoroughly with your teammates and know when someone is going to be ahead of you or when they're going to make a break, all you're focused on is your front and ANY movement and pumping as many paintballs at that movement as possible.
Before you get your knickers in a twist, I know this is NOT a prime example, but it's the closest any of us will ever experience. |
Congrats, you "broke 1000 posts".
For the record, I believe she envies you on your analogy’s hence, needs to break you somehow. 
As I said from the birth of this site, that Political debating on an Internet forum (not face-to-face) is no different from saying; you suck to the other person (IMO).
~Doc |
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Seamus |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 04:46 PM
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Member
Joined: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 1410
Location: Most likely not where you are!
Status: Offline
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| DD_Watson_50 wrote: | | greenchick wrote: | | DD_Watson_50 wrote: | GC, your use of Fox News as an example is weak, at best. It is essentially the same story as that shown on MSNBC. So, stop trying to play the conservative vs. liberal media sources card.
While ANY friendly-fire accident is deeply regrettable, we don't know the circumstances at this point, so to even speculate as to the reason is disingenuous. There is also something called "the ebb and flow of a battlefield". |
I don't see your point. you mean if one media outlet carries it then the others don't bother?
I would accept it as the "ebb and flow of a battlefield" if it wasn't such a one-way traffic. See if you could accept it so philosophically if we killed your people. In four years of war, it hasn't happened yet, whereas you've killed 12 of ours.
Anyway, it saddens and infuriates me, so I'm not going to discuss it. |
First, you could have picked ANY news organization as the source for your comment because they ALL had it, and yet you chose Fox News, as it appeared, to make a derisive point.
Second, I repeat, we DON'T know the circumstances and the battlefield conditions at the time. It may have been a stagnant field or house-to-house. WE DON'T KNOW!
Third.... No "You Americans"? What about your statement of "you've killed 12 of ours"? Sounds pretty all-encompassing to me.
Allow me to throw out this example:
Have any of you ever been on a paintball field? I know Batman, Tina Vampyregurl and I have been. Whether it's on a bunker field, the woods or in a village, things happen so fast all you do is react. Unless you've discussed your tactics thoroughly with your teammates and know when someone is going to be ahead of you or when they're going to make a break, all you're focused on is your front and ANY movement and pumping as many paintballs at that movement as possible.
Before you get your knickers in a twist, I know this is NOT a prime example, but it's the closest any of us will ever experience. |
Several buddies of mine who had aspirations of going into the military when I was in high school used to ask to use my land as staging grounds for some friendly war games. When we had the money we would use paint ball guns in my woods. When we didn't have as much money we used plastic pellet shooting air pistols. and when we were all really short on cash we would use walkie talkies set to the same frequency and then report positions and announce kills via the walkie talkies. Although we were not trained in these maneuvers we seemed carry them out fairly efficiently. The one thing we could not control all the time however was the advent of accidental friendly fire when we were using pellet guns or paint ball guns. We used to do this on a regular basis year round. Sometimes counting me out however due to issues with my health. I agree with DD_Watson_50 about the issues of battlefield chaos. Whether it's your first time or whether you're a multiple year veteran, there will always be incidents of friendly fire.
The other thing that I don't think has been taken into account fully is the fact that the US has more troops in Iraq than any other country hence a greater danger for friendly fire because there are more people and opportunities to make mistakes.
But what do I know... I'm just a simple civilian... I think we should leave battlefield concerns to those experts who know more about the art of war.
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 04:51 PM
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Joined: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 8400
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I can honestly say I don't envy his "analogy's"! The telling phrase in his analogy to me was " Unless you've discussed your tactics thoroughly with your teammates" which I hope and pray is the case with the USAF!
Again, before you get all high and mighty about how I expressed myself, imagine if one of your allies was killing your soldiers at the same rate, then imagine how delicately you would phrase your protestations. Not very, I think would be the answer!
There are tables to show how many Coalition soldiers have been killed in the two Iraq Wars by US personnel and it doesn't make pretty reading. Not politically presented, just statements of fact. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 04:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 8400
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| morgram wrote: | | greenchick wrote: | I've had a night's sleep and am less emotional about it. I too would be genuinely interested to see if anyone could explain this phenomenon. After all, it's not just your allies that you kill, it's your own people too. I'm sure the average USAF pilot is not more stupid than the average, say, RAF pilot, so why don't we hear of the RAF mistakenly killing US soldiers? Is it the training? Is it the gung-ho spirit?
This is a genuine question, please treat it as such. |
Obviously our pilots are seeing more aerial action then yours and I went out of my way to show you deference, greenchick, before I posted this subject. I titled this message friendly fire incident instead of oops, my original choice but then I realized that oops might have conveyed an insensitive connotation. |
Are you for real?? |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 05:11 PM
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Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 6435
Location: Southwestern Connecticut, U.S.A Heroes: Bjorn Of Borg, and Bill, of course.
Status: Offline
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Are any of you for real?
Why do you bang your heads against this wall? |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 05:22 PM
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Member
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: 1046
Location: St. Peters, Missouri
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| greenchick wrote: | I can honestly say I don't envy his "analogy's"! The telling phrase in his analogy to me was " Unless you've discussed your tactics thoroughly with your teammates" which I hope and pray is the case with the USAF!
Again, before you get all high and mighty about how I expressed myself, imagine if one of your allies was killing your soldiers at the same rate, then imagine how delicately you would phrase your protestations. Not very, I think would be the answer!
There are tables to show how many Coalition soldiers have been killed in the two Iraq Wars by US personnel and it doesn't make pretty reading. Not politically presented, just statements of fact. |
There's no "high and mighty" about it. I'm just counter-pointing your expressions. As I said before, ANY FF incident is deeply regrettable, regardless of whether committed by RAF vs US or USAF vs a Royal Regiment. Also, as stated by Seamus, when you have the majority of troops in the AO (area of operation) (95%?), and you're not on the same frequency of communications, the possibility of FF increases exponentially.
My suggestion would be to, put on a mask, strap on a 12-pod belt, grab an airgun and step onto a field. If ever you want to experience an adrenaline rush and tunnel-vision, that's the way to go. My son and I played in a 3-man tournament 3 years ago and 2 matches BEFORE ours my heart-rate was at 130 bpm. I was the oldest player in the tourney at 50 and it was 95* F. We finished first with a 9-1 record and one of our games took all of 47 seconds, from "GO, GO, GO" to hanging the flag.
Plainly stated, FF is a fact of war. I have no doubt this incident will be thoroughly investigated and measures reinforced on prevention. |
_________________
DaHjaj 'oH QaQ jaj Daq Hegh.
legh SoH Daq [Hades]
"Today is a good day to die.
See you in Hades."
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