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Old William Shatner Main Discussion - Ok. I have a question of a sensitive nature (religious)

SMB - Nov 25, 2007 - 11:11 AM
Post subject: Ok. I have a question of a sensitive nature (religious)

I realize that this is a sensitive topic, but I also know that there are some folks here who can steer me in the right direction.

When I was living in Ohio in the early 70s, I met a doctor who was of Jewish decent, although his entire family is Christian. He says he can trace is roots back to the time of Jesus and his family has been Christian all along.

I was raised in the Christian home, but, for the past three years, I have been doing a self-directed study on the "Jewishness of Jesus." I realize it is a very sensitive subject to many and please believe me; I am in no way interested in proselytizing anyone. This is my own personal spiritual journey.

During my self-directed study, I have run into the evangelical groups like the one depicted in the JTA article: "MESSIANICS RISING: Growing Evangelical Movement: Finding new ways to proselytize" (http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/article/20071115evangelicalpartI.html). I am not particularly interested in getting involved with them as my intentions are not to change anyone except to try and gain a better understanding of my own beliefs and to distinguish what I truly believe from what I was simply taught to believe.

I have found many different view about Jesus. Some think he was a traitor, some think he was just another Jewish rebel, and still others believe that he never really existed. And most unfortunately, there are those who associate Jesus with people who have substituted American Capitalism for Christianity.

I am interested in studying the Jewish roots behind the parables and even the famous, "Lord's Prayer." I have invested in a couple of books: "The Complete Jewish Bible," by David H. Stern. I also have his commentary, which does seem to shed some light on the parables and other areas in the Bible that have always been puzzling to me.

Sorry for this being so long. I know that I am walking a thin line on the rules of the board. I also know that if anyone can point me in the direction of some reliable resources that are written by proven scholars, it will be some of you folks.

Any suggestions?

littlestar - Nov 26, 2007 - 12:07 AM
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Well...don't come up with a Hard or tenuous question...OK? Laughing

While I try to think of what would be applicable....read

THIS ...for a spark

Really Hard to think what would answer your quest....

littlestar - Nov 26, 2007 - 12:40 AM
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Though I have tried many times in my life to find Historical evidence...I have never been able to do so....

This and many other similar writs always compelled...

angel - Nov 26, 2007 - 01:02 AM
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Sorry Sue Marie, I haven't any contributions to help you with your studies. I, like a lot of Christians have learned all the church dogmas and feel these things to be true. Where it's relevance is in Jewish history, the correlations between Jesus, Christianity, and the Jewish faith is fascinating. But as to how the whole ball of wax which is Christianity took form in actual history, I'm ignorant. But I have my blind faith. You have to believe in something even if all signs point to it as being wrong. I really don't agree with last document posted, of course. Trying to be as diplomatic as I can here...I find it very unsettling. But I don't begrudge people their beliefs or disbeliefs. I try to live my life peacefully without too much discord with my neighbors. Good luck in your research, Professor and peace be with you. Cool

jena_fuller - Nov 26, 2007 - 01:38 AM
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Albert Schweitzer's "Quest of the Historic Jesus" might be helpful, but you might also benefit from reading earlier versions of the Christian Bible, anything pre-King James such as the Vulgate translations. I have a colleague who did a couple of Theology degrees and apparently it helps to know Greek if you really want to get clear understanding Rolling Eyes

But if you bone up on the timeline of the church and bible you'll get a clear picture of his role from political agitator to divinity. also if you want references to texts on the anthropological perspective on religion let me know, those might help you sort things out.

Cuzsis - Nov 26, 2007 - 02:11 AM
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I know a lot of people took comparative religion in college.

You may want to check your local University, I'm sure some of the profs or even the librarians could point you to some good books!

I generally find that I have greater luck with research at a University. There are books there you can't find anywhere else. And you generally get to avoid the fluff that pervades our stuff.

SMB - Nov 26, 2007 - 03:40 AM
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All very interesting readings. While I am not ready to dismiss Jesus as a myth, I do know that there are a lot of unanswerable questions. Some of the better seminaries do not allow students to use the New Testament for at least the first two years of their training.

I do attend to agree about seeking out some of the university materials. I have gotten pretty good at distinguishing between those who are trying to uncover the truth from those who are simply trying to protect their paychecks.

It is sort of like the story of Noah and the flood. There are those still today who believe the flood covered the entire earth, rather than the area around the Black Sea.

And then there is sorting out all of the mythical stories surrounding the real person of St. Nicholas of Myra (who later became the star of the legendary Santa Claus).

I can also understand where a lot of confusion can happen. I am also Native American and know first hand about folks who think they need to "help me" because I am different. Many Native nations have closed religious ceremonies due to the fact that people would come and view the ceremonies and then go home and write about what they had seen and heard. Some of our elders read their articles and barely recognized what was being described and decided to close the ceremonies to the public.

Perhaps some of the stories surrounding Jesus were viewed from outsiders looking in and not quite understanding what they were seeing.

Oh well, perhaps if we spent our time making sure everyone had the basics of life.... a warm place to sleep, clothes to wear, and food to eat and then spend the rest of our time walking our spiritual journeys, there would be no time for wars or squabbles.... well, perhaps not lethal squabbles anyways.

Thank you for your input. I have concluded that finding the answers isn't as important as taking the journey. And although I am not Jewish, I have always had a kindred with Anne Frank as we share a birthday (different year, of course).

Cat - Nov 26, 2007 - 09:39 AM
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Sue, I'm not quite sure what you are asking here.

I know what I believe, and I don't feel it is what I was taught to believe, but what I have come to on my own. It is not important to me if others believe the same, as I do believe that we are given free will to believe as we choose.

As far as historical proof of either the New or Old Testament, even if such proof exists, two different scholars will find two different meanings in every piece of evidence found. I always had a fascination with archeology and geology. And it always amazed me how two different scientists could look at the same fossil, deposit, etc., and come up with two entirely different views on what it meant.

As far as proof of things of a spiritual nature, I don't believe we can do that. Many people believe in ghosts, or the afterlife, or things that transcend the physical plane, but how can they prove it exists? And if there is no proof, does that mean that those beliefs are invalid? If physical relics or proof is needed for it to be valid to hold a belief, then there are no valid beliefs beyond our own physical nature. We are nothing more than physical creatures who eat, relieve ourselves, and procreate. Kind of takes the fun of things...... (okay, maybe not the procreate part....) Wink

If I am nothing more than a physical being, then where is need for love, compassion, understanding, etc. Those are not physical traits, and they have no meaning in a strictly physical world. If there is no God, then why, as a strictly physical creature, shouldn't I go into my neighbors house, and take what I can physically take? And if the neighbor objects, I simply kill them. That is certainly the case in nature ~ the strong takes from the weak. If someone tells me it is wrong, then why? Based on what laws? Those laws of man? But what right does another physical creature have to tell me that something is "wrong"? Who has the right to define what is right for me to do? Why should I hold the door open for a person to pass into a building rather than snarl at them and push them away so that I can get in sooner?

I don't choose my behavior based on what someone else has written down in a book somewhere, I base it upon something that I can't always explain, and I certainly can't see. JMO, but I think we are more spiritual than physical, more emotional than rational, and that there is a lot more to life than eating, doing the Vito thang, and the occasional nookie. People can choose who they believe Jesus to be, or whether or not he existed. I can't prove him anymore then I can prove I love my family, that I have feelings of compassion for my friends, or that I care about others. But, I know what I feel, and that's enough for me.

Cuzsis - Nov 26, 2007 - 10:58 AM
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Sue,

Not sure what Nation you are, but the tribes up here have a flood legend that says the waters pretty much covered the Olympic mountains. The local people tied their canoes to the tops of trees. (this is one version I seem to remember hearing. I've heard another one too about following a bear to safety. Maybe it was a different part of the same one).

I seem to recall there are other cultures that have similar stories.

I always thought it was one of the more interesting ones to research as it isn't unique.

SMB - Nov 26, 2007 - 10:58 AM
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I agree with you Cat. I have always had a very strong faith. I also know that one cannot scientifically prove the existence of God, but as humans we are hard wired to believe in some sort of higher power. I do believe that we go through stages of spiritual growth. We tend to grow from a child's faith to an adults and then beyond. Some never get to maturity, but that is all part of the journey. Everyone walks the path at their own pace.

It bothers me sometimes when people think of other's religion in stereotypical ways. I have heard some Jewish folks say, "Don't blame us for killing your Jesus." I do not blame them for anything, anymore than my having German ancestory means that I cooked any of their folks. As a matter of fact, some of my Christian family managed to escape Germany and helped bring some Jewish families with them. This was all before I was born of course. It bothers me when I see car commercials using an age old hymn as a tune to sing about their latest automobile.

I think that what I am wanting to do is, assuming that Jesus was a real person in history, I want to take a look at the parables, the teachings and try to view them from His point of view which would have been Jewish, not Gentile or any other point of view. I am also being very careful because there are some who are relunctant to talk about the subject because they are questioning my motives (and I totally understand).

I have probably stretched this topic far beyond the realms of this board, so will sort of back away. I do appreciate everyone's input. Thank you for being tolerant.

Cuzsis - Nov 26, 2007 - 11:01 AM
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That's fascinating. I'd be interested to see what you come up with. Cultural context has always intrigued me!

SMB - Nov 26, 2007 - 11:04 AM
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Cuzsis wrote:

Bob and I are Muskogee Creek. There are stories of floods in our tribal history. There are also stories amongst most of the nations of a visitor who came nearly 2000 years ago, but that is a topic for another discussion. Cool

Cuzsis - Nov 26, 2007 - 11:11 AM
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SMB wrote:

Cuzsis wrote:

lol! Yes..

Although I may have read about that visitor in college at one point (if you folks have written about it at all)... So many native cultures studied, they all kind of ran together after 4yrs (even mine! Laughing

)

Cat - Nov 26, 2007 - 06:15 PM
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SMB wrote:

I understand what you mean about people of any faith claiming that Jewish people were responsible for the death of Jesus. For those, like me, who believe that Jesus was sent by his Father, than it was predestined to happen, and he died because, or for, every person of every faith, background, etc. I guess he was considered a rabble rouser, because he stood up to the "religious elite" of the day, who, much like many people today, said one thing, and usually did another. People don't like to be questioned, or have their actions held up to the light. I always thought that even if I didn't believe Jesus to be part of the trinity, I would have thought he was the most amazing man. Even though I believe he was God, I just feel as though he were more human than we are at the same time. That probably doesn't make sense, as I'm having trouble describing what I mean. But it was like every emotion, every feeling that we have, he had in the purest form. Again, sorry if that doesn't make sense. Embarassed

I think that in addition to understanding what he said given his heritage, we have to look at it in the light of the time he lived in. I always loved the fact that the first person who saw him after the resurrection, and who was the first to tell others, or "preach the gospel", was a woman. So much for those who say women have no place in the ministry. Very Happy

And I am bothered by those who use some of what Paul said to demean womens place in the church. At that time, women weren't given the same teachings as men, so that often during a service they would have questions. Paul thought it disruptive if people were asking questions during the service, so he advised women to wait until later to ask the questions of their husbands. How many times have people used this to insinuate that women should keep their pie holes quiet. I think Paul would be horrified to know that his teachings were taken so out of context! Wink

I am also leery of taking this discussion too far, as I know it can be a hot topic. I am pleased that it has remained so nicely done. Very Happy

SMB - Nov 26, 2007 - 08:54 PM
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I am sort of laughing right now because years ago, we had a rector who was very old fashioned and didn't like the idea of women having too much power in the church. He made a remark using Paul's suggestion that women should be quiet.

The next Sunday, (and mind you, this is a very conservative type of church), the choir processed in. The only ones singing were the men. The women had all gotten together and put tape over their mouths. (This was also back in the Hippy movement 70s era). Needless to say, the rector never mentioned women being quiet in church again. Yea for the women!

Cat - Nov 26, 2007 - 09:12 PM
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SMB wrote:

Good for them! Laughing

littlestar - Nov 27, 2007 - 12:02 AM
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Again...I TOTALLY understood everything you said Cat....please try to get the original Greek and Hebrew texts...you will be so elated at the major role women played in the formation of Christianity and in Jesus' Life.

Sue, that was great... !!!!
Have you ever read Anne Rice-Christ the Lord?
Another perspective...though historically researched...still fiction, but interesting. Don't even think about previous writings by her...

WE CAN HAVE AN INTELLIGENT CONVERSATION WITHOUT STRIFE !!!!
Maybe because it's ONLY been women discussing

SMB - Nov 27, 2007 - 12:17 AM
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I will look Anne Rice up. I also have Karen Armstrong's book, The History of God. Very interesting.

I used to have a set of books (fictional) that portrayed Jesus as a small boy growing up and learning how to be a carpenter. It was fascinating.

I remember one time doing a project for school. I went to the library and told them that I wanted to find a picture of a house that would have been like the one Jesus would have grown up in. The librarian brought out all of these books on cathedrals, churches, and monestaries. I rolled my eyes and said, "No, I mean a house that Jesus grew up in." We finally found a photo of a village. The librarian said to just ignore the TV antenas and it would be close. Smile

I think we often forget that Jesus was a child at one time and grew up like any other child. Talk about parental responsiblities. Shocked

littlestar - Nov 27, 2007 - 09:32 AM
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Because of what you said about Anne Frank...
I thought you might like to see THIS

SMB - Nov 27, 2007 - 03:49 PM
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littlestar wrote:

Because of what you said about Anne Frank...
I thought you might like to see THIS

Thank you.

BWW - Nov 27, 2007 - 04:51 PM
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I read Anne Frank's diary. This was my favourite bit...

I know, I'll burn in hell Wink

SMB - Nov 27, 2007 - 05:04 PM
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BWW wrote:

I read Anne Frank's diary. This was my favourite bit...

I know, I'll burn in hell Wink

Is that the Reader's Digest version?

satin_patriot - Nov 27, 2007 - 11:34 PM
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My dear, while I am not altogether sure that I understand your question or your quest, you may enjoy reading some of C.S. Lewis' apologetics or perhaps even some of Lee Strobel's works. (The Case for Faith, The Case for Christ, etc.-- Strobel's writings are more "modern" day, and probably easier reading. Lewis's get a little hairy, sometimes, since the English language has changed so much over the last few decades.)

There are LOTS of writings out that show scientific reasoning backing up what the Bible says. Everything from the Flood to the Resurrection have been bandied about. Basically, you either believe it or you don't, and people on both sides of the issues have "scientific" arguments to support their cases. It takes a lot more faith to NOT believe what the Bible says to be true, in my opinion, simply because there's too much compelling evidence that you have to write off to get rid of God. If there's a specific subject you'd like more information on (I'm having a hard time divining what exactly you're trying to find), please let me know, and I'll be happy to pass on some suggestions. (WARNING: anything I suggest will fall on the pro-Scriptural Authority side, because that's what I believe.)

Much love.
L~

(satinpatriot at gmail)

SMB - Nov 28, 2007 - 12:16 AM
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Thank you for your imput Satin.

I wonder how many of us would be willing to go to the gas chambers because of our faith. I mean, what if Bin Laden ever managed to overcome the US government and then proceeded to declare anyone who is not Muslim is to be executed? (And, this is not an attack on the Muslims)

OK, I know it is a long shot, but I sometimes think we get too comfortable and think that we are invinceble.

littlestar - Nov 28, 2007 - 12:29 AM
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That reminds me of a scene in "The Others" ....when the children
were having their Bible Lesson and they discussed the denial of faith...

angel - Nov 28, 2007 - 12:46 AM
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SMB wrote:

I have to admit that I've had scary thoughts about that, too. Except the means of death in my scenarios is crucifixion. The symbol that we revere would be our means of execution. I've thought about that alot after reading The Stand.

Cuzsis - Nov 28, 2007 - 11:36 AM
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BWW wrote:

I read Anne Frank's diary. This was my favourite bit...

I know, I'll burn in hell Wink

Window or aisle seat? Laughing

Hart - Nov 28, 2007 - 08:10 PM
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[quote="
It bothers me sometimes when people think of other's religion in stereotypical ways. I have heard some Jewish folks say, "Don't blame us for killing your Jesus." The Jews did not kill Jesus, the Romans did for political reasons.

I think that in addition to understanding what he said given his heritage, we have to look at it in the light of the time he lived in. I always loved the fact that the first person who saw him after the resurrection, and who was the first to tell others, or "preach the gospel", was a woman. So much for those who say women have no place in the ministry. Very Happy

" quote

You should source some suitably qualified information on the contents of the Dead Sea Scrolls, including the missing Disciples books. One of which was written by a woman disciple called Ruth (I think that was her name) who is actually now thought to have been the person Jesus might have wanted to take on his ministry. Although the "established" roman catholic church has always denied this and continues to do so.

You also need to look into the various Councils of Church meetings which took place but some of the important dates are from 304AD and 500AD. One famous one took place in Constantoble. It was at these that the form of the roman catholic church was formalised, even down to what priests could and couldn't wear, how to consolidate power and wealth within the priesthood. They decided to exclude the "missing" disciples book, remove references to Jesus' female disciples and put the anti-female spin on woman based on an interpretation of Peter's words. Given the context of the time period, there were very few communities who gave women power and most notibly horrified with the concept were the Romans !! So the mindset of those who had grown up in an enviorment which had historically fallen under the Roman Empire has to be questioned.

Good luck with the research.

Hart

Cuzsis - Nov 30, 2007 - 11:24 AM
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Hart wrote:

Fascinating Hart!

I too, have heard of the "questions asked in church disrupting the service". Indeed, I heard that the men and women sat on opposite sides of the church, and so to ask a question, one would have to shout across the room even.

It's funny to, b/c these days *everyone* is supposed to be quiet in church. Not just the gals. Laughing

In reading some of his interactions with women (Mary M. amongst others) I must say that I don't see him really playing favorites one way or the other between the sexes. Heck, what about the women at the well?! She wasn't even in the same culture group! It wouldn't surprise me at all to have women disciples, he did have a fairly large following. Much more than the 12 if I recall correctly.