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William Shatner Main Discussion - The left has overseen the replenishment of wild animal....

morgram - Jun 19, 2007 - 02:11 AM
Post subject: The left has overseen the replenishment of wild animal....

populations over the course of the past 30+ years, but the cost...

morgram - Jun 19, 2007 - 02:12 AM
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Utah Boy Killed by Bear While Camping
AMERICAN FORK, Utah - An 11-year-old boy was dragged screaming from his family's tent and killed by a black bear during a Father's Day outing in the Utah wilderness.
The boy, his mother, stepfather and a 6-year-old brother were sleeping in a large tent Sunday night in American Fork Canyon, about 30 miles southeast of Salt Lake City, when the stepfather heard the boy scream "something's dragging me."
The boy and his sleeping bag were gone. The cut in the nylon tent was so clean, his family, who was not identified, first believed the boy had been abducted, U.S Forest Service officers said.
Wearing flip-flops and without a flashlight, the stepfather searched frantically for the boy and then drove a mile down a dirt road to a developed campground.
"He was pounding on my trailer door. He said somebody cut his tent and took his son," said John Sheely, host of the Timpooneke campground, who alerted authorities by driving down the canyon to a pay phone.
The boy's body was found about 400 yards away from the campsite, said Lt. Dennis Harris of the Utah County sheriff's office.
Authorities said the bear, as much as 300 pounds, probably was the same one harassing another group of campers in the same spot before dawn Sunday. Kurt Francom said his son, Jake, was kicked in the head through a tent wall.
"It could have been my boy," said Francom, a school custodian.
Wildlife officers shot a black bear Monday and flew its remains out of the Wasatch Mountains for tests to confirm that it was responsible for the fatal mauling. The officers used 26 dogs to track the bear's scent, shooting and wounding him. The creature wandered around wounded until officers shot and killed him several hours later, said Lt. Scott White of the state wildlife agency.
Authorities said the death was Utah's first fatal attack on a human by a black bear. It follows reports of several bear sightings during spring and occurred just hours after other people in the same primitive campsite likely encountered the same animal.
"Truly a tragic event," said Jim Karpowitz, director of the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources. "Events of this type are extremely rare in Utah."
The attack occurred in American Fork Canyon, a popular camping destination with elevations as high as 11,000 feet.
"When it's hot and dry like this, bears are short of food," Karpowitz said.
In May, officials reported black bears in Provo Canyon and Park City, including one that ripped through a screen door at a cabin where residents had burned food and opened windows.
Officers killed that bear because it showed no fear when biologists tried to scare it away with firecrackers, the wildlife agency said.
In July 2006, a black bear bit the arm of a 14-year-old Boy Scout while he slept in a tent, also in Utah County. The female bear returned to the campground and was killed.
Black bears, which are found in 27 states, are "generally less aggressive than other bears and don't prey on humans," said Stewart Breck, a wildlife biologist with the U.S. Department of Agriculture in Fort Collins, Colo.
The typical human-bear conflicts involve bears breaking into homes or cars.
"But it's not breaking into a tent and killing," Breck said.

morgram - Jun 19, 2007 - 02:18 AM
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The left doesn`t seem to want to comprehend that you cannot put the lives of animals on the same moral plain with the lives of human beings. The left will flip out if one even mentions the possibility of having a bear hunt. Animal population control for the purpose of reducing the probability of bear attacks on people doesn`t seem to register with them.

littlestar - Jun 19, 2007 - 03:46 AM
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That's NOT True...I'm what you would consider a "Lefty" and I can understand the necessity for culling...

Jami - Jun 19, 2007 - 03:56 AM
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The extreme left don't like it though.

Take, for instance, why California has had so many wild/forest fires these past years. Seems a bug not native to the US got into here and into our trees, which has killed off lots and lots of trees in the forest. Instead of letting people go in and clear out just the dead and infected trees, the extreme left protested over and over again until no clearage was allowed. So all those dry trees so close together.... one homeless man makes a fire to keep himself warm - suddenly millions of dollars in damage, and lots of lost of both human and animal life that could've been prevented if the dead and infected trees had been removed.

We had a bill a few years back as well asking for the culling of mountain lions. It didn't pass. Next thing you know, mountain lions are so desperate for food they started killing hikers and bikers.

littlestar - Jun 19, 2007 - 04:48 AM
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The Mountain Lion attack...near my area..was because they built a development in what has been the cats hunting area for over 200 years... you can't expect the animals to understand that...HUMANS are supposed to be the Intelligent species...

Cat - Jun 20, 2007 - 01:20 AM
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Well, I'm sort of in the middle, leaning to the right on some issues....... but it is not the fault of the animals. People are breeding like, well, rabbits. There's too many of us, not enough food, not enough space. Animals should have some rights too, and if people were more responsible, there would be enough room for both. As it is, there is less and less space, food, etc. for the animals, so there is bound to be conflict. Again, not the animal's fault IMO.

So, we shouldn't just spay and neuter our pets ~ but consider doing ourselfs as well! Very Happy

Gornman - Jun 20, 2007 - 01:26 AM
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Cat wrote:

So, we shouldn't just spay and neuter our pets ~ but consider doing ourselfs as well! Very Happy

Cancels late night rendezvous with Cat...... Idea

morgram - Jun 20, 2007 - 01:26 AM
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So the development should have been built someplace else rather than the 200 year mountain lion feeding ground? This is exactly what I`m getting at. The necessity of human habitation must and should supercede the rights of animals. The mountain lion population should either have been greatly reduced or relocated before the development was ever built, but every time such measures can even be attempted by responsible parties, the extreme left flips out.

Cat - Jun 20, 2007 - 01:29 AM
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Gornman wrote:

Cat wrote:

So, we shouldn't just spay and neuter our pets ~ but consider doing ourselfs as well! Very Happy

Cancels late night rendezvous with Cat...... Idea

Hey, I've cleaned almost all the rust off of my old shears, and I have rubbing alcohol and band-aids in case of emergency! Shocked

Cat - Jun 20, 2007 - 01:32 AM
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morgram wrote:

Sorry, Morgram we agree on a lot, but I disagree here. There are so many people moving into areas that have been the habitats of these animals for, well, since they were created. There are few places to relocate them successfully, and it isn't fair that they be put down just because there are too many people. Unless something starts eating us, we need to stop producing so many kids.

Save the cougars and bears! Eat your neighbor! Twisted Evil

They are quite nice with fava beans and a good ciantia....... Wink

angel - Jun 20, 2007 - 02:57 AM
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Mother Nature has a way of compensating and fighting back. The animals are only doing what comes naturally. It's a no-win situation for the animal population. Decimation should not be the answer. Unfortunately this is going to happen. Crying or Very sad

Cuzsis - Jun 20, 2007 - 04:41 AM
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morgram wrote:

I think if it came down to it, few if any people would volunteer to let a mountain lion (or anything really) live over them. That's just normal survival of any species. Territory is not just a human thing, it's an animal thing too. Animals also fight out for their territories.

Everyone may want to let animals live, I do, but we're not going to starve and go homeless for it. Our cities over here are expanding like crazy. Sure it irritates me, but I can't blame people for wanting to have housing...

The only thing you can really do, is keep wilderness areas and parks, and the requisite number of animals per square mile that will comfortably fit it.

littlestar - Jun 20, 2007 - 05:05 AM
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I am Sorry...I come from a people that believe ...
We do not OWN this Land...but are to care for it...
We do NOT Dominate the animals...we learn to live with them...
We do not Forget to show RESPECT to all Living things...

What Goes Around
Comes Around...
because we ARE all related...
Every time you decimate a species...you decimate a part of Yourself...

I will NEVER believe People are in such NEED that McMansions, Hiking and Biking Trails...Olympic Swimming Pools...are of such a great Necessity..that the land and all it's dwellers need to BOW to the GREED

CaptainsHonor - Jun 20, 2007 - 05:09 AM
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We need to find BALANCE . . . in everything.

AquinasWI - Jun 20, 2007 - 05:23 AM
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Cat wrote:

Gornman wrote:

Cat wrote:

So, we shouldn't just spay and neuter our pets ~ but consider doing ourselfs as well! Very Happy

Cancels late night rendezvous with Cat...... Idea

Hey, I've cleaned almost all the rust off of my old shears, and I have rubbing alcohol and band-aids in case of emergency! Shocked

Most fascinating....!

Cuzsis - Jun 20, 2007 - 06:10 AM
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littlestar wrote:

I plan to live on the edge of a national forest, with a few acres and a normal sized cedar cabin/house. The animals are most welcome, and will do much better in my green belt (that will be largely untouched b/c we like woods and natural settings) than the condos that would end up there instead. Idea

I must add that individuals that are interested in eating me or mine will be duly removed. Idea

Johnny_Turbo - Jun 20, 2007 - 02:53 PM
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Man, i feel bad for the kid and his family! I don't think this is a case of what comes around goes around. If they tried to feed him or if they had food around, which they didn't, I can understand that line of thinking. This isn't the case in this tragedy. Animals are unpredictable, but no one is to blame.

"Encroachment" or development has an effect on wildlife, but to think that this was some type of balancing of forces is wrong.

One thing to remember is that you should always have at least one person on watch while others sleep in the woods. A gunshot would've probably scared the crap right out of the bear and he may've dropped the kid and ran.

As for trails in the woods, the Susquehannock Indians had many side trails that deviate from the main Appalacian trail. Many of them still exist and I certainly don't think it was a case of greed that they used the land for their purposes. When I hike and bike on those trails, I don't expect the bear and deer to bow to my Raleigh Record 12-speed. They think I'm a nut for taking a street bike into the woods!

Jami - Jun 20, 2007 - 04:39 PM
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The life of a human child should come before the life of a bear. Period.

And if people would be more logical and not seek one extreme or the other then things would work out better. Cull the animals, you're doing them a favor plus you're doing their prey animals a favor too, and doing the land a favor.

Though with all the people killing their own children either by abortion or waiting until the kid's born and leaving them in a dumpster or beating them to death - well, I'm starting to think people should have to get a lisence to have a kid. Get pregnant without a lisence, your kid gets taken away until you can prove you're a responsible parent. Have more then three abortions, mandatory sterilization since you're too lazy to use birth control.

DOC - Jun 20, 2007 - 04:51 PM
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Jami wrote:

Got off the wrong-side of the bed this morning Jami Question

Soon we'll all need a license to post here Laughing

littlestar - Jun 20, 2007 - 05:07 PM
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JT...You have to follow the path...of conversation...to put what I say in context..I'm not Michael Moore...and if you haven't figured out from all these years...I write the same as I am thinking...with the pauses, as well.

The imbalance is the killing of animals to provide a "virgin" land, for super developement, to fit an unnecessary need .

Of course your local tribe varied from the given paths (because the Appalachian trail was developed by Benton MacKaye, in 1921, for camping experience and to bring people to nature, it isn't the Tribal hunting paths of old)...To cull animals for survival is one thing....IF these DEVELOPERS asked permission to take a FEW of the animals, and ate them, using every part to good use....OK !!! IF these Developers explained to the people buying these Houses...that they are on age old hunting territory and to take measures...that would also be one thing, which I would expect of an HONEST person. They SAY NOTHING about the Danger...only pretty up the words ...
"Come to the Silver Springs Developement...Feel the Peace, surrounded by forest. Awaken to the calls of mirade birds and go to sleep to the sounds of the coyote. Gentle springs run throughout...(yada, yada...You get the picture)

That is what my statements refer to...not a child being killed by a Bear...I would never say that is what is right and necessary to keep the balance.(Human sacrifice is NOT a component)
There will always be renegade animals, due to illness, or previous wounding and everyone needs to be prepared for defensive measures when going into the Animals' territory.
There was always a watch in all Tribal cultures...the firekeeper...remained awake all night, replenishing the central fire and watching for renegades...human or animal.

At least you realise that you are going into their territory, street bike or no, and respect the land and it's dwellers....not that YOU have every given right to decimate and control them to your liking. That, I respect !!!
...and they probably see you coming and say..Who is that crazy whiteman...RUNnnnnn!!!! Wink

DOC - Jun 20, 2007 - 05:36 PM
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When camping in a forest (especially with all the past bear incidents), aren’t you (human) risking yourself to the outdoor elements in the first place? I don't see a debate here Confused

littlestar - Jun 20, 2007 - 05:49 PM
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Thanks for the Logical and Simplistic answer DOC....

Why didn't I say that?

YAPPY FEMALE !!!!

jena_fuller - Jun 20, 2007 - 07:07 PM
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I am a Lefty, and spend my entire life encouraging displaced bears to kill humans, including teddy bears. Fear me.

As a Lefty, I also support the immigration of illegal insects to the USA and expect them to do the jobs our insects cannot. Freely vilify me. Rolling Eyes

Johnny_Turbo - Jun 20, 2007 - 08:02 PM
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littlestar wrote:

Well, that sounds better than what comes around goes around and every time you decimate a species, you decimate a part of yourself!! To me, it just sounded a little cold-hearted after what happened to this little kid. But i know you're not like that!! That, I'm sure of, so I just decided to respond to those phrases and add a comment/opinion on the tragedy.

The Appalacian Trail was used by the Susquehannock as a traveling path and for other reasons long before 1921. It's really cool and once you get to the top, it's all very level and you can easily travel for miles and miles!

I know I posted this years before, but 2 fawn came right up to me while I was on the trail! They were so cute! The one fawn sniffed right at my shoe before discovering me. Once they looked up and saw me, they became scared but only ran a few yards and then chilled again. I was with a friend and we just stood there talking while they continued to sniff around. Kinda neat!

Johnny_Turbo - Jun 20, 2007 - 08:08 PM
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jena_fuller wrote:

I am a Lefty, As a Lefty,...

Have you ever heard of Lefty Gomez?

morgram - Jun 20, 2007 - 08:17 PM
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angel wrote:

Nice babe!

morgram - Jun 20, 2007 - 08:34 PM
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Well, as I see it you`ve got 2 factors coming into play here. Because of conservation, wild animal populations that were depleted 30 or 40 years ago have been allowed to come back combined with unrestricted housing development. Now you`ve got development encroaching on former wilderness areas. Now you`ve got frequent bear attacks and cougar attacks with maybe a few coyote attacks thrown in for good measure. Housing developments are not a natural phenomenon of nature and do not reverse themselves or go into decline. So, therefore, areas of new human habitation MUST be secured and made safe. IF there are more fatalities as a result of overabundant black bear populations and it is found out that any state government refused all suggested measures to cull down these populations, that would be criminal negligence and a disregard of the most basic obligation elected officials have, namely to protect the life and limb of the vast majority of the law-abiding public, I kid you not, the most basic obligation.

angel - Jun 20, 2007 - 09:57 PM
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morgram wrote:

angel wrote:

Nice babe!

Thanks

littlestar - Jun 20, 2007 - 10:31 PM
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Be aware...and be Respectful..like this Man

greenchick - Jun 20, 2007 - 10:35 PM
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jena_fuller wrote:

ROTFLMAO! Of course, if you're a Righty, when you're attacked by a bear, you go and invade an ant colony!

Cat - Jun 21, 2007 - 01:34 AM
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Another problem we are having here is animals being hit and killed on the highways, as their territory diminishes. And it's not like people are looking where they are going....... Confused

After all, you need two hands to use the cellphone and eat that cheeseburger. And it's tough to stop when you are steering with your knees! Shocked